usvi-on-line
Tourists harassed by gangs of locals on main road!
Connie wrote:Larry, while I can see what you're saying, I didn't think it was racist in any way.
I wasn't thinking of it that way either! I was curious because I have really mostly only run into very friendly people on STJ with very few exceptions. I run into more rude people here. For some reason, maybe because of the way I was brought up, I do not look at someone and think about the color of their skin. We are all just people in my book.
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tedprosser
- Posts: 77
- Joined: Tue Jun 09, 2009 8:23 am
- Location: Coral Bay, STJ
Larry
I think you are missing the point!
I believe, no I KNOW Grormit’s intention is just the opposite. I think it is her way to bring attention to the problem and the issure.
It is a reaction to the OVER REACTION of a few folk on the forum about the perception of crime, the island and fear of the locals on STJ. We all know STJ is not perfect. But it is a wonderful place with a lot of quirks! Most of us are just visitors and when be go to the island we bring all our "Baggage " with us and I am not talking about luggage!
Ted Prosser
(My Real Name)
I think you are missing the point!
I believe, no I KNOW Grormit’s intention is just the opposite. I think it is her way to bring attention to the problem and the issure.
It is a reaction to the OVER REACTION of a few folk on the forum about the perception of crime, the island and fear of the locals on STJ. We all know STJ is not perfect. But it is a wonderful place with a lot of quirks! Most of us are just visitors and when be go to the island we bring all our "Baggage " with us and I am not talking about luggage!
Ted Prosser
(My Real Name)
Last edited by tedprosser on Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jo Ann - VA
- Posts: 756
- Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:56 am
- Location: Virginia
Exactly Ted! Nothing bad was intended by Gromits post. I thought it was hilarious.tedprosser wrote:I think you folks are missing the point!
I believe, no I KNOW Gormit’s intention is just the opposite. I think it is her way to bring attention to the problem and the issure.
It is a reaction to the OVER REACTION of a few folk on the forum about the perception of crime, the island and fear of the locals on STJ. We all know STJ is not perfect. But it is a wonderful place with a lot of quirks! Most of us are just visitors and when be go to the island we bring all our "Baggage " with us and I am not talking about luggage!
Ted Prosser
(My Real Name)
Jo Ann
Always planning the next vacation...
Always planning the next vacation...
From Wikipedia on the "internets":
Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts.
In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.
A common feature of satire is strong irony or sarcasm—"in satire, irony is militant"[2]—but parody, burlesque, exaggeration, juxtaposition, comparison, analogy, and double entendre are all frequently used in satirical speech and writing.
This "militant" irony or sarcasm often professes to approve (or at least accept as natural) the very things the satirist wishes to attack.
@Larry - (as for your charges of racism) ANYONE who knows me will tell you that this couldn't be further from the truth. I married into a Spanish/Italian family and anyone who knows what my real name is would assume that I was a Latina.
Contrary to your assumptions about me, I hold a great deal of respect for West Indian culture and for all residents of STJ and the VI's regardless of race, creed, color, age, gender, sexual orientation or whether they have two feet, four feet, eight feet or fins.
I have repeatedly witnessd racist statements on this forum, none of which you have ever called out.
In truth, I don't think that the people even realized how racist their statements were (we all come from different social constructs and socio-economic backgrounds) and not wishing to rock the boat I, like most everyone else, just let it go.
NOWHERE in my little tales of "locals" do I state what I am talking about (in both cases they turn out not to be human at all, but in fact local wildlife).
If people paint their own picture in their minds and make their own assumptions about what they are reading before they get to the end, then that is their baggage and that is not on me.
Why would you assume that when I say "locals" that I mean locals of color? Again, YOUR baggage NOT mine.
Many, many other folks on this forum clearly got my message loud and clear. It was meant and presented in a humorous and reasonably thoughtful way.
My creative tales of local life also contained clear advice and guidance about how to handle these situations with the wildlife on island -- which in both cases I have learned the hard way.
I find it intensely fascinating that I posted advice about "where to store luggage while on STT" last week - this is a question that is commonly asked on the forum as ALL of us have to pass thru STT going home (unless you are coming from the BVI) -- and to date that post has only recieved 246 hits (as of 10:29 am EDT on July 27, 2010).
Whereas posts regarding "thieves stealing lunches from tourists on the beaches" and this one on "locals harassing tourists on the main road" have received 807 and 1473 hits respectively in less than half the amount of time.
Clearly, based on a couple of recent events, folks are looking for the worst case scenario and then they think they have found it with my post. When, in reality, they don't that may be a little jarring for some.
I think some may have been caught off-guard because while reading the post they have subconciously assigned a subtext and a narrative of their own that in reality doesn't exist and is in no way part of the outcome of my posts.
But in a way you have proved my point by outing your own take on the narrative. Dontcha think? Just a little?
Larry, my forum friend, perhaps one day we can meet and have a beer and pass the time together. But until that time don't make assumptions about me that are baseless in reality.
In the meantime, I'm sure that folks would welcome and appreciate any thoughts or guidance you have for folks considering a trip to STJ.
As several first time visitors have recently indicated, they were very appreciative of the time folks on this forum took to help make their trips the best they could be and my "thieves and locals" posts will no doubt caution first time visitors against leaving food unattended on the beach and to not feed the donkeys.
Whatever you do, please don't waste your time trying to figure me out. As most know from my trip reports or from meeting me in person or who truly do know me, it would be as fruitless as gathering leaves in a windstorm.
As my Grandpa used to say, it's like teaching a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
And in case its not completely clear: I am the pig in this scenario. Oink Oink.
Weekdays I can be found rooting around in the dumpster on Centerline road.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled program....
Satire is primarily a literary genre or form, although in practice it can also be found in the graphic and performing arts.
In satire, vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.[1] Although satire is usually meant to be funny, its greater purpose is constructive social criticism, using wit as a weapon.
A common feature of satire is strong irony or sarcasm—"in satire, irony is militant"[2]—but parody, burlesque, exaggeration, juxtaposition, comparison, analogy, and double entendre are all frequently used in satirical speech and writing.
This "militant" irony or sarcasm often professes to approve (or at least accept as natural) the very things the satirist wishes to attack.
@Larry - (as for your charges of racism) ANYONE who knows me will tell you that this couldn't be further from the truth. I married into a Spanish/Italian family and anyone who knows what my real name is would assume that I was a Latina.
Contrary to your assumptions about me, I hold a great deal of respect for West Indian culture and for all residents of STJ and the VI's regardless of race, creed, color, age, gender, sexual orientation or whether they have two feet, four feet, eight feet or fins.
I have repeatedly witnessd racist statements on this forum, none of which you have ever called out.
In truth, I don't think that the people even realized how racist their statements were (we all come from different social constructs and socio-economic backgrounds) and not wishing to rock the boat I, like most everyone else, just let it go.
NOWHERE in my little tales of "locals" do I state what I am talking about (in both cases they turn out not to be human at all, but in fact local wildlife).
If people paint their own picture in their minds and make their own assumptions about what they are reading before they get to the end, then that is their baggage and that is not on me.
Why would you assume that when I say "locals" that I mean locals of color? Again, YOUR baggage NOT mine.
Many, many other folks on this forum clearly got my message loud and clear. It was meant and presented in a humorous and reasonably thoughtful way.
My creative tales of local life also contained clear advice and guidance about how to handle these situations with the wildlife on island -- which in both cases I have learned the hard way.
I find it intensely fascinating that I posted advice about "where to store luggage while on STT" last week - this is a question that is commonly asked on the forum as ALL of us have to pass thru STT going home (unless you are coming from the BVI) -- and to date that post has only recieved 246 hits (as of 10:29 am EDT on July 27, 2010).
Whereas posts regarding "thieves stealing lunches from tourists on the beaches" and this one on "locals harassing tourists on the main road" have received 807 and 1473 hits respectively in less than half the amount of time.
Clearly, based on a couple of recent events, folks are looking for the worst case scenario and then they think they have found it with my post. When, in reality, they don't that may be a little jarring for some.
I think some may have been caught off-guard because while reading the post they have subconciously assigned a subtext and a narrative of their own that in reality doesn't exist and is in no way part of the outcome of my posts.
But in a way you have proved my point by outing your own take on the narrative. Dontcha think? Just a little?
Larry, my forum friend, perhaps one day we can meet and have a beer and pass the time together. But until that time don't make assumptions about me that are baseless in reality.
In the meantime, I'm sure that folks would welcome and appreciate any thoughts or guidance you have for folks considering a trip to STJ.
As several first time visitors have recently indicated, they were very appreciative of the time folks on this forum took to help make their trips the best they could be and my "thieves and locals" posts will no doubt caution first time visitors against leaving food unattended on the beach and to not feed the donkeys.
Whatever you do, please don't waste your time trying to figure me out. As most know from my trip reports or from meeting me in person or who truly do know me, it would be as fruitless as gathering leaves in a windstorm.
As my Grandpa used to say, it's like teaching a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
And in case its not completely clear: I am the pig in this scenario. Oink Oink.
Weekdays I can be found rooting around in the dumpster on Centerline road.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled program....
*Another fine scatterbrained production
I never tried to figure you out, nor do I care to. I also did not bring racist baggage, as you like to suggest as a method of removing the responsibility from yourself for your racism-rooted joke.
You make a long-winded response, but you were not very thoughtful in what you said. I'm sure you're a nice person and I never said "blahblah is a racist!!". But you played off people's fears in your humor and whether you can accept it or not, the VAST majority of locals are not white. You made a racist joke.
I'm glad your forum friends will defend it, but that doesn't make it less of what it is. I also don't appreciate people saying "well I dont see color" in response to my noting of the poor flavor of humor. Thats another thoughtless way of trying to paint me as a racist for making the original observation of the racist nature. These are strawmen games.
I can appreciate that you're picking on some of those who were playing the crime up (Jorge) in a way that was irresponsible or just sensationalist. However, I don't think its fair to let you off the hook about this being race baiting. You KNOW that West Indians are the face of the majority of locals and you know that the crime people are afraid of is by (or at least agitated by) the West Indian gangs coming over from the other islands.
These jokes you are making are old tactics by race-baiters and although you end with a punch line--you are not free from people observing the obnoxious nature of the joke itself.
That being said, I'm sure you're a nice persona and we can have a beer together any time. You just can't expect me not to call ANYONE out for racism--no matter how much they don't realize it or blame socioeconomics. To not call it out is to accept it.
You make a long-winded response, but you were not very thoughtful in what you said. I'm sure you're a nice person and I never said "blahblah is a racist!!". But you played off people's fears in your humor and whether you can accept it or not, the VAST majority of locals are not white. You made a racist joke.
I'm glad your forum friends will defend it, but that doesn't make it less of what it is. I also don't appreciate people saying "well I dont see color" in response to my noting of the poor flavor of humor. Thats another thoughtless way of trying to paint me as a racist for making the original observation of the racist nature. These are strawmen games.
I can appreciate that you're picking on some of those who were playing the crime up (Jorge) in a way that was irresponsible or just sensationalist. However, I don't think its fair to let you off the hook about this being race baiting. You KNOW that West Indians are the face of the majority of locals and you know that the crime people are afraid of is by (or at least agitated by) the West Indian gangs coming over from the other islands.
These jokes you are making are old tactics by race-baiters and although you end with a punch line--you are not free from people observing the obnoxious nature of the joke itself.
That being said, I'm sure you're a nice persona and we can have a beer together any time. You just can't expect me not to call ANYONE out for racism--no matter how much they don't realize it or blame socioeconomics. To not call it out is to accept it.
I thought the whole thing was very clever and funny.
I don't think it was racist, but it did cross my mind that if I was a business owner on St. John I might not be happy with the the title of the posts. If someone was skimming/visiting the Forum, they might get the wrong idea about the island. Especially when there was a real crime on one of the threads.
But I totally get the satire, and it isn't racist in my opinion, and I don't think Gromit was trying to do anything but entertain.
I don't think it was racist, but it did cross my mind that if I was a business owner on St. John I might not be happy with the the title of the posts. If someone was skimming/visiting the Forum, they might get the wrong idea about the island. Especially when there was a real crime on one of the threads.
But I totally get the satire, and it isn't racist in my opinion, and I don't think Gromit was trying to do anything but entertain.
"Sponges grow in the ocean...I wonder how much deeper it would be if that didn't happen."
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sapphirecat
- Posts: 246
- Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:43 pm
- Location: Turtle Bay, NYC
Larry-
I am not picking on anyone in particular (despite your suggestion to the contrary) and cannot and will not apologize for other people.
Clearly you have your own issues. My posts are in no way racist or "race baiting", nor are they intended to be. In fact your charges of "race baiting" are not even grounded in the terms true definition.
Since YOU brought it up.... when you look at people the first thing you clearly see is color. Why is it that you can't accept that others do not?
Where is it proven that all of the crimes committed in the VI's are by West Indians?
When I read that a crime was commmitted (rare on STJ) I do not automatically assume the color of the skin of the criminal is dark. Clearly you do.
For the purpose of my narrative what other term would you have suggested that would not give the punchline away? Are donkeys not part of the "local" wildlife?
Take a deep breath. Do not assume the worst about people and their motives. I know you are better than this.
((hugs))
Gromit
I am not picking on anyone in particular (despite your suggestion to the contrary) and cannot and will not apologize for other people.
Clearly you have your own issues. My posts are in no way racist or "race baiting", nor are they intended to be. In fact your charges of "race baiting" are not even grounded in the terms true definition.
Since YOU brought it up.... when you look at people the first thing you clearly see is color. Why is it that you can't accept that others do not?
Where is it proven that all of the crimes committed in the VI's are by West Indians?
When I read that a crime was commmitted (rare on STJ) I do not automatically assume the color of the skin of the criminal is dark. Clearly you do.
For the purpose of my narrative what other term would you have suggested that would not give the punchline away? Are donkeys not part of the "local" wildlife?
Take a deep breath. Do not assume the worst about people and their motives. I know you are better than this.
((hugs))
Gromit
*Another fine scatterbrained production
Gromit I have absolutely loved your recent topics. I am sorry that others find it offensive but I (even having been a victim of crime on STJ) did not take it that way at all. I have yet to have the pleasure of sharing a beer with you but from what I get about you through your posts and TR's you are one of the last people I would ever consider to be racist or prejudice in any way. Thanks for sharing your humor with us!
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Cruzan Chris
- Posts: 139
- Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:49 pm
- Location: Michigan
Hey Gromit...Check out this GANG of Centerline Bovine
that Island Girl caught by Peter Bay
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that Island Girl caught by Peter Bay
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"St.John,always in our hearts,minds,and souls"