Health care reform:
did you really say that? i mean COME ON! by any estimation there is great medical research coming out of many countries with socialized medicine -germany, France, the UK, Sweden, Canada to name a few have produced not only excellent advances in medicine but nobel prize winners as well (in medicine). the US has a GREAT track record for scientific and medical innovation- and we are a large country --and oh, GUESS WHAT!? the FEDS pay for most oof the basic research that goes on in this country --however, all of that should NOT detract from the advances made by brilliant researchers in other countries--soxfan22 wrote:Yes, Linne...And please tell me...What was the last great medical advancement that came out of Denmark?linne wrote:That also means that the government in a way have influence on the medical prices.
Linne
There has to be someplace in the world where pharma/biotech can carry out their research free from the shackles of price controls from the federal government.
I'm telling you, we are biting the hand that feeds us.
in fact denmark has some 13 nobel laureates (neils bohr probably the most famous, but that is physics) and 4 of these are in medicine--3 of them major advances. of course these are not american numbers --we are just SO much larger than denmark that to compare absolute numbers is ridiculous.
and all you all will be VERY glad that some system of socialized medicine is in place when you hit retirement......just sayin.


< leaving on the 22nd of march...but too lame to figure out the ticker thing again!>
SJ
I suppose we can split hairs here-- but Pharma money essentially goes into developing drugs that piggy back on the basic research that has already been done in universities--IMO pharma does very little basic research- This is not to say that drug discovery is bad--it is just to say that the market driven system as it is DOES not support basic research into, say, rare conditions(or even common conditions that don't pay) or into things that may seem like a long shot (but might pay off) -- pharma is in it for profit-- that is the model--nothing wrong with it, but there needs to be an alternative.
the NIH puts about 31 billion annually into grants to scientists--this funds the basic medical research in university medical schools (and this along with the other social medicine programs--ie: medicaid and medicare-- provides much of the resources for medical education)
without that the US wouldn't be the innovator it is -- and with only pharma leading the charge we'd be missing the point entirely
I suppose we can split hairs here-- but Pharma money essentially goes into developing drugs that piggy back on the basic research that has already been done in universities--IMO pharma does very little basic research- This is not to say that drug discovery is bad--it is just to say that the market driven system as it is DOES not support basic research into, say, rare conditions(or even common conditions that don't pay) or into things that may seem like a long shot (but might pay off) -- pharma is in it for profit-- that is the model--nothing wrong with it, but there needs to be an alternative.
the NIH puts about 31 billion annually into grants to scientists--this funds the basic medical research in university medical schools (and this along with the other social medicine programs--ie: medicaid and medicare-- provides much of the resources for medical education)
without that the US wouldn't be the innovator it is -- and with only pharma leading the charge we'd be missing the point entirely
< leaving on the 22nd of march...but too lame to figure out the ticker thing again!>
How do I say this politely...loria wrote:SJ
I suppose we can split hairs here-- but Pharma money essentially goes into developing drugs that piggy back on the basic research that has already been done in universities--IMO pharma does very little basic research- This is not to say that drug discovery is bad--it is just to say that the market driven system as it is DOES not support basic research into, say, rare conditions(or even common conditions that don't pay) or into things that may seem like a long shot (but might pay off) -- pharma is in it for profit-- that is the model--nothing wrong with it, but there needs to be an alternative.
the NIH puts about 31 billion annually into grants to scientists--this funds the basic medical research in university medical schools (and this along with the other social medicine programs--ie: medicaid and medicare-- provides much of the resources for medical education)
without that the US wouldn't be the innovator it is -- and with only pharma leading the charge we'd be missing the point entirely
You are out of your tree.
July 2003 - Honeymoon at The Westin
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
well sox, you can't say that politely. and so you didn't. I would like to say that i am surprised.
I am all for an discussion based on fact.
when you decide to politely have one , then I am all ears (or eyes as the case may be)
but in the mean time- grow up.
ps I will agree that phamra does work in areas that they otherwise might not go--for example a friends company works in anti-malarials (sort of their pro bono) but that is on the tails of HUGE profits--both are needed to make it work.
I am all for an discussion based on fact.
when you decide to politely have one , then I am all ears (or eyes as the case may be)
but in the mean time- grow up.
ps I will agree that phamra does work in areas that they otherwise might not go--for example a friends company works in anti-malarials (sort of their pro bono) but that is on the tails of HUGE profits--both are needed to make it work.
< leaving on the 22nd of march...but too lame to figure out the ticker thing again!>
Loria, I didn't see many facts in your arguement. And the fact that you decided to support your point of view with Nobel Prize winners, well, consider me unimpressed.
You know what I think about that? I think George W. Bush deserves a Nobel based only on his AIDS in Africa program that saved millions of lives on the continent.
How many lives have people like Jimmy Carter, AlGore, and Barack Obama saved?
I have zero confidence in that partisan organization to ever do anything that is not purely political. It's a shame.
Profit is what makes the world go round, Loria. That, is a fact.
You know what I think about that? I think George W. Bush deserves a Nobel based only on his AIDS in Africa program that saved millions of lives on the continent.
How many lives have people like Jimmy Carter, AlGore, and Barack Obama saved?
I have zero confidence in that partisan organization to ever do anything that is not purely political. It's a shame.
Profit is what makes the world go round, Loria. That, is a fact.
July 2003 - Honeymoon at The Westin
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
loria wrote:did you really say that? i mean COME ON! by any estimation there is great medical research coming out of many countries with socialized medicine -germany, France, the UK, Sweden, Canada to name a few have produced not only excellent advances in medicine but nobel prize winners as well (in medicine). the US has a GREAT track record for scientific and medical innovation- and we are a large country --and oh, GUESS WHAT!? the FEDS pay for most oof the basic research that goes on in this country --however, all of that should NOT detract from the advances made by brilliant researchers in other countries--soxfan22 wrote:Yes, Linne...And please tell me...What was the last great medical advancement that came out of Denmark?linne wrote:That also means that the government in a way have influence on the medical prices.
Linne
There has to be someplace in the world where pharma/biotech can carry out their research free from the shackles of price controls from the federal government.
I'm telling you, we are biting the hand that feeds us.
in fact denmark has some 13 nobel laureates (neils bohr probably the most famous, but that is physics) and 4 of these are in medicine--3 of them major advances. of course these are not american numbers --we are just SO much larger than denmark that to compare absolute numbers is ridiculous.
and all you all will be VERY glad that some system of socialized medicine is in place when you hit retirement......just sayin.
![]()
Loria
Loria, thank you for reminding me about our Nobel winners.
I myself wondered about Soxfans sentence.
The medical industry is a very important industry in Denmark. We have many Biotech firms and firms, who sells their products all over the world. I’m surprised that such a knowledgeable as Soxfan don’t know too example this firm:
About Novo Nordisk
Novo Nordisk is a healthcare company and a world leader in diabetes care. In addition, Novo Nordisk has a leading position within areas such as haemostasis management, growth hormone therapy and hormone replacement therapy.
Novo Nordisk manufactures and markets pharmaceutical products and services that make a significant difference to patients, the medical profession and society. With headquarters in Denmark, Novo Nordisk employs more than 29,000 employees in 81 countries, and markets its products in 179 countries.
Novo Nordisk’s B shares are listed on the stock exchanges in Copenhagen and London. Its ADRs are listed on the New York Stock Exchange under the symbol ‘NVO’.
Linne
XOXO wrote:Quote Linne: What happens is that the doctor often write a prescription on medicine from a certain firm, perhaps because he knows the salesman, perhaps he has been invited to a congress by the firm, or perhaps because he don’t know that you can find the same type of medicine cheaper from another firm.
Linne: I don't know what happens in different areas but that isn't how it works here. When I get a precscription my Doctor asks me which pharmacy I use. I suppose we could shop around but we have a locally owned pharmacy that I like to support.
I haven't read everything so I will brb.
xoxo
I'm being curious now.
Can you find exactly the same medicine from the same firm to different prices in the pharmacies?
Like "todays offer", 100 Zanidip only ....?
Nothing wrong with that, but it isn't so here.
Linne
GG
Linne...I stand corrected. Novo-Nordisk is a great company that has certainly improved the lives of many diabetics. Their work in that area is really second to none.
My larger point was that when I think about the large pharmaceutical/biotech/medical device firms, I tend to think of the United States with companies like Pfizer, Merck, Johnson & Johnson (nurses worldwide universally admire J&J because of the resources the company has put into nurse education over the years), Abbott, BMS, Lilly, Amgen, Genentech...
And then if you look at the top Medical Device companies in the world:
1. Johnson & Johnson - USA
2. GE Healthcare - USA
3. Medtronic - USA
4. Baxter - USA
5. Cardinal Health - USA
6. Tyco Healthcare - Bermuda
7. Siemens - Germany
8. Philips - Netherlands
9. Boston Scientific - USA
10. Stryker - USA
The future of medicine is in biotech, not pharma...So lets take a look at the top 15 or so biotech companies:
1. Amgen - USA
2. Genentech - USA
3. Genzyme - USA
4. UCB - Belgium
5. Gilead - USA
6. Serono - Switzerland
7. Biogen Idec - USA
8. CSL - Australia
9. Cephalon - USA
10. MedImmune - USA
11. Celgene - USA
12. Abraxis Bioscience - USA
13. Actelion - Switzerland
14. Imclone - USA
15. Amylin - USA
Even a great multinational company such as GlaxoSmithKline has its roots in America, dating back to the late 1800's - though now it is based in the UK.
And there are certainly other great European companies like Roche, Bayer, Novartis, Astra Zeneca, etc.
Finally, an excerpt on a post I reecently read on another board...This gentleman explains what I have been trying to say perfectly. Excerpt, then link below...Please click the link, you may learn some things about pharma!
My larger point was that when I think about the large pharmaceutical/biotech/medical device firms, I tend to think of the United States with companies like Pfizer, Merck, Johnson & Johnson (nurses worldwide universally admire J&J because of the resources the company has put into nurse education over the years), Abbott, BMS, Lilly, Amgen, Genentech...
And then if you look at the top Medical Device companies in the world:
1. Johnson & Johnson - USA
2. GE Healthcare - USA
3. Medtronic - USA
4. Baxter - USA
5. Cardinal Health - USA
6. Tyco Healthcare - Bermuda
7. Siemens - Germany
8. Philips - Netherlands
9. Boston Scientific - USA
10. Stryker - USA
The future of medicine is in biotech, not pharma...So lets take a look at the top 15 or so biotech companies:
1. Amgen - USA
2. Genentech - USA
3. Genzyme - USA
4. UCB - Belgium
5. Gilead - USA
6. Serono - Switzerland
7. Biogen Idec - USA
8. CSL - Australia
9. Cephalon - USA
10. MedImmune - USA
11. Celgene - USA
12. Abraxis Bioscience - USA
13. Actelion - Switzerland
14. Imclone - USA
15. Amylin - USA
Even a great multinational company such as GlaxoSmithKline has its roots in America, dating back to the late 1800's - though now it is based in the UK.
And there are certainly other great European companies like Roche, Bayer, Novartis, Astra Zeneca, etc.
Finally, an excerpt on a post I reecently read on another board...This gentleman explains what I have been trying to say perfectly. Excerpt, then link below...Please click the link, you may learn some things about pharma!
http://www.spendmatters.com/index.cfm/2 ... l-IndustryBig pharma spends 12 - 16% of gross revenues per year for research and development. It's one of the biggest "spends" of the company. Generic companies spend a much smaller percentage on R&D, saving their money for the legal costs associated with the numerous court cases filed that are designed to take the discovering company's patent rights as early as possible. Big pharma are going through a particularly bad time with products coming off patent and many of the former "Blockbusters" are prematurely being taken over by the generic companies. Their investment in legal actions has paid off -- potentially at the expense of traditional big pharma R&D. If you do the simple math, you can start to understand why big pharma is beginning to spend a smaller percentage of gross revenue on internally based traditional research and development. Instead they are now doing more deals with small companies that have a promising drug or discovery methodology. This might improve the chances of big pharma having more "hits", but you have to wonder if reducing the amount of traditional R&D is a good thing.
Last edited by soxfan22 on Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
July 2003 - Honeymoon at The Westin
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
Linne: maybe someone else can answer this question. We don't go to the Doctor often or have many prescriptions so I have never checked prices. I would assume that pharmacy are competitive and would have comparable prices for prescriptions--this is how capitalism works--but I haven't checked myself. I do take a bio-identical that I cannot get at my hometown pharmacy--I have to use a compounding pharmacy. I wonder if bio-identical medicine will still be available??linne wrote:xoxo I'm being curious now.
Can you find exactly the same medicine from the same firm to different prices in the pharmacies?
Like "todays offer", 100 Zanidip only ....?
Nothing wrong with that, but it isn't so here.
Linne
SjfromNj: I hope you are right and this will not pass the senate. I sorta feel like they will stop at nothing to get it passed.
SJfromNJ do you know what percentage of the uninsured are illegal immigrants? It seems to me that this legislation is all about getting the uninsured insured. So, . . . we have already decided that a portion of them are financially capable of getting insurance . . . another portion are illegal immigrants . . . there is title 19 for the very poor . . . who is left?? It seems like a pretty extreme bill that is suppose to help someone--but who?
It isn't helping me; that is something I am sure of.
GG
GG - From what I've read, of the 46 million uninsured, about 15 million of those are illegal immigrants. That is why, if you remember back to Obama's infamous joint session (think, "You Lie!"), Obama for the first time didn't refer to the 46 million uninsured, he said 30 million uninsured. Because he knows the 46 is inflated with illegals, and everybody else knows it too...So he can't try to sell a HC plan that includes those 15 million illegals, because the public would never go for that...With the exception of his hard left base, of course - but that is a marginal group.
Now, I think we can all agree that at the end of the day, the dems will figure out how to do two things:
1. cover the illegals
2. include federal money for abortion, despite the Hyde and Stupak amendments
Now, I think we can all agree that at the end of the day, the dems will figure out how to do two things:
1. cover the illegals
2. include federal money for abortion, despite the Hyde and Stupak amendments
July 2003 - Honeymoon at The Westin
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
soxfan22 wrote:Loria, I didn't see many facts in your arguement. And the fact that you decided to support your point of view with Nobel Prize winners, well, consider me unimpressed.
You know what I think about that? I think George W. Bush deserves a Nobel based only on his AIDS in Africa program that saved millions of lives on the continent.
How many lives have people like Jimmy Carter, AlGore, and Barack Obama saved?
I have zero confidence in that partisan organization to ever do anything that is not purely political. It's a shame.
Profit is what makes the world go round, Loria. That, is a fact.
I was thinking the same thing about the nobel peace prize. That prize means nothing to me now.
And Sox--don't forget Ronald Reagan. "'Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this Wall.'" Reagan promoted peace through strength.
Obama has done what---oh yeah I remember---he got the prize "for being elected" and wanting peace. Whatever.
GG
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Who said anything about sending them back? I just don't want to pay for their health care.sailorgirl wrote:And when all those scary illegals go back where they came from just try to find someone to care for our kids and elderly, cut the grass, clean the pools and pick the produce. I'm just saying... Be careful for what u wish!
I often wonder...My siste-in-law lives in West Palm Beach. When we are down there, we often take the drive to the other side of the intracoastal over to Palm Beach...As you drive through and gawk at the multi-million dollar homes (many belonging to Hollywood stars), you see mexicans doing the lawns, trimmimg the shrubs, etc...I wonder, do the rich Hollywood elite, many of whom have more money than God, pay for the health care of the illegal (sorry "undocumented") cutting the grass?
I think probably not.
July 2003 - Honeymoon at The Westin
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE