Health care reform:
My knowledge to the health system in USA and the proposed reform is not so big that I can discuss details. But when I read the topic about the costs for a health insurance and hear what can happen if you don’t have insurance, I simply cannot understand that anybody can be against a reform of the system, perhaps not everything at the same time, but perhaps step by step, I don’t know.
You will find it horrible to pay the same tax as in Europe and especially in Denmark.
But I’m satisfied with all the advantages it gives. I’m glad to know that every citizen here can go to a doctor or come to a hospital for free. No one needs to worry about money on top of the worries about illness. If you need some medicament the government will pay a part of it, the same with glasses and hearing aids. That also means that the government in a way have influence on the medical prices. If a doctor tells that you need some pills, the pharmacy has to give you the cheapest of the pills of this sort on the market. A good competition! Which means lower medical prices.
I can easily find things with the European system, which isn’t good, but I would never switch it.
Linne
You will find it horrible to pay the same tax as in Europe and especially in Denmark.
But I’m satisfied with all the advantages it gives. I’m glad to know that every citizen here can go to a doctor or come to a hospital for free. No one needs to worry about money on top of the worries about illness. If you need some medicament the government will pay a part of it, the same with glasses and hearing aids. That also means that the government in a way have influence on the medical prices. If a doctor tells that you need some pills, the pharmacy has to give you the cheapest of the pills of this sort on the market. A good competition! Which means lower medical prices.
I can easily find things with the European system, which isn’t good, but I would never switch it.
Linne
XOXO - get your facts straight. That wasnt me - it was jimg20.
Linne – saw a TV commercial the other night produced by some .org lobby that was a rather effective and touching depiction of what shouldn’t be lost in all the shouting about healthcare reform.
I searched but cannot find it online so I’ll describe it:
it was video only, no dialogue or voice over. A man, maybe late 50s is shown holding his wife’s hand as she lies in a hospital bed. She is obviously very ill, but not immediatley critical. Cut to drive home, then inside an empty looking house where he is packing up the last few boxes, wrapping up a framed photo of his wife and putting it in a box. Cut to outside the house, he looks back at it with the “For Sale” in front of it. Cut to drive to a bleak apartment complex, he unpacks box, takes the framed photo out and unwraps for placement in the apartment. Cut to a drive back to the hospital to visit his wife again. End commercial with text of link to the organization promoting some kind of healthcare reform.
What that commercial is showing is the extraordinary lengths that many people with inadequate or no health insurance must go through to pay for the level of care they may need for a loved one with a severe and/or chronic illness.
The number one reason for bankruptcy in the USA is healthcare costs. Some people think that is shameful, and recognize that something finally needs to be done about it.
Linne – saw a TV commercial the other night produced by some .org lobby that was a rather effective and touching depiction of what shouldn’t be lost in all the shouting about healthcare reform.
I searched but cannot find it online so I’ll describe it:
it was video only, no dialogue or voice over. A man, maybe late 50s is shown holding his wife’s hand as she lies in a hospital bed. She is obviously very ill, but not immediatley critical. Cut to drive home, then inside an empty looking house where he is packing up the last few boxes, wrapping up a framed photo of his wife and putting it in a box. Cut to outside the house, he looks back at it with the “For Sale” in front of it. Cut to drive to a bleak apartment complex, he unpacks box, takes the framed photo out and unwraps for placement in the apartment. Cut to a drive back to the hospital to visit his wife again. End commercial with text of link to the organization promoting some kind of healthcare reform.
What that commercial is showing is the extraordinary lengths that many people with inadequate or no health insurance must go through to pay for the level of care they may need for a loved one with a severe and/or chronic illness.
The number one reason for bankruptcy in the USA is healthcare costs. Some people think that is shameful, and recognize that something finally needs to be done about it.
When we come to place where the sea and the sky collide
Throw me over the edge and let my spirit glide
Throw me over the edge and let my spirit glide
Anthony, this legislation is the very definition of a new entitlement program. At the very least, it is an expansion of existing entitlements.Anthony wrote:
If this thing stinks so bad, and if more people disagree than agree with it, then future elections will bear that out and new bills will be introduced to change it. I mean that is how it works (even if it seems not to) and that is not going to change. That is why I don't get these arguments about our freedom is gone, etc. etc.
I am not aware of any entitlement program that once adopted, has been repealed, aor even scaled back, for that matter.
This is why Obama needs this done now. Once the legislation is passed (and SJ is right, this will not be the final bill), there really is no repealing it.
As for your thoughts on ideologies not entering the discussion...How is that possible? I happen to disagree with any health care reform that increases taxes on anybody (rich, poor, homeless, middle class, ultra-wealthy, whomever). I happen to disagree with any health care legislation that will inevitably ration our health care resources. I am not in favor of any health care overhaul that does nothing to reign in tort litigation. And I will not support any bill that does not allow for the purchasing of health care across state lines, which would provide real competition in the marketplace overnight.
So, if those are my positions, I am in a different ideological place than Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and Barack Obama. The fact that they won the election has no bearing on whether or not I agree with their Marxist, anti-capitalist, central-planning views and policies.
Concerning public opinion on this health care reform...Below is an excerpt from today's Rasmussen Reports on the subject. Again, this polling data was just posted this morning:
The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 45% now favor the health care plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats. Most (52%) remain opposed.
Only 25% Strongly Support the plan while 42% are Strongly Opposed.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... are_reform
July 2003 - Honeymoon at The Westin
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
Yes, Linne...And please tell me...What was the last great medical advancement that came out of Denmark?linne wrote:That also means that the government in a way have influence on the medical prices.
Linne
There has to be someplace in the world where pharma/biotech can carry out their research free from the shackles of price controls from the federal government.
I'm telling you, we are biting the hand that feeds us.
July 2003 - Honeymoon at The Westin
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
But isn't that because they are popular with Americans?soxfan22 wrote:I am not aware of any entitlement program that once adopted, has been repealed, aor even scaled back, for that matter.
We still have a house, a senate, a president, a judiciary, etc. etc. I think you can disagree with any legislation you want on either side from the beginning until this bill - but to say that a duly elected president and members of the house and senate are Marxist, etc. - sorry but I am just not getting it! That is all rhetoric.

Anthony for Virgin Islands On Line
I thought I'd share a few articles that resonated with me.
I try to think about passionate issues in terms of "what does what I am against say about what I am in favor of?"
For me, anti-Healthcare Reform = Pro Insurance. How the industry has gotten the little guys to do the dirty work for them, I will never understand. As someone who has great insurance (two high risk pregnancies cost me about $20 each out of pocket) provided by a great employer who covers 100% of my premiums, I maybe should be for the status quo. Afterall, the known is a pretty good situation for me. However, I can't support an industry that is out of hand and has an effective monopoly in large portions of the country. An industry that looks for reasons to deny coverage or drop coverage altogether, on that is free to deny as pre-existing considitions c-sections and domestic violence.
An article that explores how the industry really works:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-k ... rance.html
In 2007, nearly two-thirds of all bankruptcies in the U.S. were tied to medical debt, and nearly 80 percent of those who filed for protection were insured at onset of illness, according to a June study in the American Journal of Medicine.
This article goes more in depth into the quote above: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31103572/ns ... alth_care/
These are not illegal immigrants or welfare moms. These are working people whose lives are ruined first by the catastrophic illness of a loved one and then by the financial ruin that follows when they reach their coverage caps. And if for a second you think you are not paying for the health care of someone who you deem "undeserving" you are in denial. They don't go get preventative care that might cost $50-100 but instead end up in the ER or hospitalized with a serious illness costing in the $1000s or $10000s.
There was a really interesting piece on NPR this morning: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =120033183 about the balance that had to be struck between abortion rights democrats and the more moderate blue dogs in order to secure/maintain the support of pro-Health Care reform Catholic Bishops (who go further than most in that they also advocate for illegal immigrants to have access to health care). It is a complicated issue and for one, like me, who is decidedly pro-choice, it is eye opening to see that I agree with anti-abortion activists (the bishops) about anything! Of course, I would have thought the anti-choice language that got added would have thrilled some of the folks around here but I guess not. I will admit I am not happy about it but it is a funding bill and the position of not using federal funds for abortion is something that I can live with, especially if it gets insurance coverage for another 36 million people.
The polical wrangling continues to intrigue me.
It is by far not a done deal, there is still a battle ahead.
I try to think about passionate issues in terms of "what does what I am against say about what I am in favor of?"
For me, anti-Healthcare Reform = Pro Insurance. How the industry has gotten the little guys to do the dirty work for them, I will never understand. As someone who has great insurance (two high risk pregnancies cost me about $20 each out of pocket) provided by a great employer who covers 100% of my premiums, I maybe should be for the status quo. Afterall, the known is a pretty good situation for me. However, I can't support an industry that is out of hand and has an effective monopoly in large portions of the country. An industry that looks for reasons to deny coverage or drop coverage altogether, on that is free to deny as pre-existing considitions c-sections and domestic violence.
An article that explores how the industry really works:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-k ... rance.html
In 2007, nearly two-thirds of all bankruptcies in the U.S. were tied to medical debt, and nearly 80 percent of those who filed for protection were insured at onset of illness, according to a June study in the American Journal of Medicine.
This article goes more in depth into the quote above: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31103572/ns ... alth_care/
These are not illegal immigrants or welfare moms. These are working people whose lives are ruined first by the catastrophic illness of a loved one and then by the financial ruin that follows when they reach their coverage caps. And if for a second you think you are not paying for the health care of someone who you deem "undeserving" you are in denial. They don't go get preventative care that might cost $50-100 but instead end up in the ER or hospitalized with a serious illness costing in the $1000s or $10000s.
There was a really interesting piece on NPR this morning: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =120033183 about the balance that had to be struck between abortion rights democrats and the more moderate blue dogs in order to secure/maintain the support of pro-Health Care reform Catholic Bishops (who go further than most in that they also advocate for illegal immigrants to have access to health care). It is a complicated issue and for one, like me, who is decidedly pro-choice, it is eye opening to see that I agree with anti-abortion activists (the bishops) about anything! Of course, I would have thought the anti-choice language that got added would have thrilled some of the folks around here but I guess not. I will admit I am not happy about it but it is a funding bill and the position of not using federal funds for abortion is something that I can live with, especially if it gets insurance coverage for another 36 million people.
The polical wrangling continues to intrigue me.
It is by far not a done deal, there is still a battle ahead.
SJfromNJ I would say all the things mentioned in your last post are not factually true or the numbers are greatly exaggerated. This is what I am talking about when I say ideology. You are listing well known talking points (TORT reform, 12 million uninsured (CNN - 45.7 million people unisured http://edition.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/08/2 ... index.html ), govt. programs wasteful and bankrupt. etc. etc.) and not mentioning this legislation at all, which is what we were trying to discuss. Just saying.
Be cool
Be cool

Anthony for Virgin Islands On Line
PS - I am going to have to quit this one - I really don't want to argue with any of you - I wanted to have a healthy debate. But I think as the mod here I should bow out before it gets any hotter in here! It's been fun. We'll see what the senate comes up with eventually.
Ciao,
Ciao,
Anthony for Virgin Islands On Line
To your first question, I would say that in general, no. There are certain sectors of our population that do not wish to take responsibility for themselves, and so they will always be happy with any type of government program (and those folks generally don't pay into it). Do you think people are happy that social security is basically insolvent?Anthony wrote:But isn't that because they are popular with Americans?soxfan22 wrote:I am not aware of any entitlement program that once adopted, has been repealed, aor even scaled back, for that matter.
We still have a house, a senate, a president, a judiciary, etc. etc. I think you can disagree with any legislation you want on either side from the beginning until this bill - but to say that a duly elected president and members of the house and senate are Marxist, etc. - sorry but I am just not getting it! That is all rhetoric.
We are already at a point where 50% of the US population doesn't pay ANY taxes at all. Is that right?
And it is not rhetorical to invoke the name and ideology of Karl Marx when discussing Barack Obama. He has written himself that he spent many of his younger days studying Marxist theory as a means to engineer social and economic justice. This is not a secret.
And lets not forget, we heard him say in his own words, "Uhhh...I think...Uhhh...That when we spread the wealth around...Uhhh...it's good for everybody".
That is the very definition of Marxism. I know you enjoy reading Anthony...You really should pick up a copy of "Das Capital" and read it, if you haven't already. I picked up a copy at the local book trader two months ago for $5.95.
Oh, and then read Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations". Talk about polar opposites!
July 2003 - Honeymoon at The Westin
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
I saw a similar study Flip. Of the folks who were insured, their average outstanding medical bills at the time of bankruptcy was a little over $17,000. For those who were uninsure, the average outstanding medical bills at the time of bankruptcy was a little over $26,000.
These were all "middle-class" people. A $17,000 medical bill for a middle class family should not force you to lose everything...That is, unless you are living beyond your means. There needs to be some personal accountability here as well.
This is also why conservatives, for the most part, are strong advocates for health savings accounts, even if you have insurance. Dems do not favor these accounts, because it takes control away from the government and puts it in the hands of the individual.
These were all "middle-class" people. A $17,000 medical bill for a middle class family should not force you to lose everything...That is, unless you are living beyond your means. There needs to be some personal accountability here as well.
This is also why conservatives, for the most part, are strong advocates for health savings accounts, even if you have insurance. Dems do not favor these accounts, because it takes control away from the government and puts it in the hands of the individual.
July 2003 - Honeymoon at The Westin
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
IF those figures are accurate, “average” can be a misleading statistic. I’d like to know the median. And what “middle class” is in CT may have a whole different meaning elsewhere in the country.soxfan22 wrote:I saw a similar study Flip. Of the folks who were insured, their average outstanding medical bills at the time of bankruptcy was a little over $17,000. For those who were uninsure, the average outstanding medical bills at the time of bankruptcy was a little over $26,000.
These were all "middle-class" people. A $17,000 medical bill for a middle class family should not force you to lose everything...That is, unless you are living beyond your means. There needs to be some personal accountability here as well.
Obviously you believe that your use of “Marxism” and “Marxist” in every other post actually helps you make your points. Some might say that is naive.soxfan22 wrote:Although, following a Marxist ideology does require some amount of naiveté...
When we come to place where the sea and the sky collide
Throw me over the edge and let my spirit glide
Throw me over the edge and let my spirit glide
I am not finished reading everything yet but I had to stop here. Anthony, I don't think you have been arguing at all. I have a different view and you have been respectful. Do what you feel you need to do but I have enjoyed your input.Anthony wrote:PS - I am going to have to quit this one - I really don't want to argue with any of you - I wanted to have a healthy debate. But I think as the mod here I should bow out before it gets any hotter in here! It's been fun. We'll see what the senate comes up with eventually.
Ciao,
GG