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Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
Thanks, Augie. I agree.
If we all join in when newbies are asking about Waterlemon so they have a true and accurate dipiction of what it might be like as opposed to not giving them any warnings, I think it would be helpful.
I do believe I will also add a post out there to tripadvisor as well. It might save someone a great deal of pain.
This is important. We need to give a realistic picture of the good and bad of waterlemon. I'm not suggesting we put people in a panic about it.... I just want them to know that conditions at that location can change rapidly and it can be a difficult snorkel.
If we all join in when newbies are asking about Waterlemon so they have a true and accurate dipiction of what it might be like as opposed to not giving them any warnings, I think it would be helpful.
I do believe I will also add a post out there to tripadvisor as well. It might save someone a great deal of pain.
This is important. We need to give a realistic picture of the good and bad of waterlemon. I'm not suggesting we put people in a panic about it.... I just want them to know that conditions at that location can change rapidly and it can be a difficult snorkel.
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
This man's experience is an opportunity for all of us to learn something about the power of the sea and our own limitations.
Although I am an advanced diver, I am a very careful snorkeler. I am not a big fan of challenges while snorkeling. When I am snorkeling I don't have my own air supply or a BCD to keep me on the surface. I am dependent on being able keep myself on the surface. When diving I can go deeper or shallower and avoid some currents. I know that some of the area dive sites are subject to the tides. This one appears to be also. Are tide tables readily available on STJ or the web? We are going to have a full moon on this trip.
By the way, diving has taught me to be a better snorkeler. The basic class spends a good deal of time teaching us how to move through the water with the least effort. If you are thinking about learing to dive, there are a number of secondary benefits from doing it.
For a variety of reasons, I have not attempted to circumnavigate Waterlemon Cay. If I understand it correctly one tries to swim counter clockwise. Is that correct? If after all this time of going to STJ I am not sure, I am certain someone else is also not clear on this.
JIM
Although I am an advanced diver, I am a very careful snorkeler. I am not a big fan of challenges while snorkeling. When I am snorkeling I don't have my own air supply or a BCD to keep me on the surface. I am dependent on being able keep myself on the surface. When diving I can go deeper or shallower and avoid some currents. I know that some of the area dive sites are subject to the tides. This one appears to be also. Are tide tables readily available on STJ or the web? We are going to have a full moon on this trip.
By the way, diving has taught me to be a better snorkeler. The basic class spends a good deal of time teaching us how to move through the water with the least effort. If you are thinking about learing to dive, there are a number of secondary benefits from doing it.
For a variety of reasons, I have not attempted to circumnavigate Waterlemon Cay. If I understand it correctly one tries to swim counter clockwise. Is that correct? If after all this time of going to STJ I am not sure, I am certain someone else is also not clear on this.
JIM
Man it's like some dream we live down here....
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
That is what I have read...to go around the cay counter clockwise.
We did that snorkel in November and we must have just been lucky and not had much current that day, as we
didn't have any problems going around the cay etc..
I will say that my husband had a near drowning a few years ago at Tortola, and he said swimming the distance from the rocky shore, out to the cay, did make him nervous.
We are glad we did it, but have both agreed we don't need to do it again
I definitely would advise strong caution to anyone who hasn't done it before, and would definitely recommend vests. Pam
We did that snorkel in November and we must have just been lucky and not had much current that day, as we
didn't have any problems going around the cay etc..
I will say that my husband had a near drowning a few years ago at Tortola, and he said swimming the distance from the rocky shore, out to the cay, did make him nervous.
We are glad we did it, but have both agreed we don't need to do it again
I definitely would advise strong caution to anyone who hasn't done it before, and would definitely recommend vests. Pam
~Pam~
"Barefoot in the snow white sand
A bag of sea shells in her hand
She finally found a paradise it seems..."
"Barefoot in the snow white sand
A bag of sea shells in her hand
She finally found a paradise it seems..."
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
OK, if you are standing at Annaberg looking at the cay, does the current on the back side go from right to left (counerclockwise) or left to right (clockwise) which I doubt, or from the bay out to sea? Or does it vary among all of the above depending on conditions?
JIM
JIM
Man it's like some dream we live down here....
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
I have done the loop around Waterlemon many many times. I have gone around both ways; clockwise and counter clockwise. Not once have I felt any current or difficulty swimming and we always go in from the beach instead of the point closest to the cay. This March we brought 2 newbies to St John and couldn't wait to show them the beauty of the far side of the cay. As we swam out I could feel the current. It was a tough slog to get to the beach on the cay. I told my husband that I wasn't going around; the current was too strong and despite being a good swimmer I was not messing around with it. They overruled me and elected to swim the circle; I stood my ground and said I would wait there for them.
I was a nervous wreck waiting for them. As they got around the island they gave the thumbs up so I waved and swam in along the rocks; the current actually pushed me into the beach so it was an easy snorkel in. I expected them to be right behind me as we were only 20 yards away when I waved. Well they hit the current and had to swim parallel which was pushing them away from the beach, I waited at least a half an hour and I was pretty terrified. I will never swim around Waterlemon if there is a current, it is very strong and could exhaust someone pretty easily.
They did say the snorkel was beautiful but they do admit to feeling panicked at at least one point when they were not getting anywhere.
I was a nervous wreck waiting for them. As they got around the island they gave the thumbs up so I waved and swam in along the rocks; the current actually pushed me into the beach so it was an easy snorkel in. I expected them to be right behind me as we were only 20 yards away when I waved. Well they hit the current and had to swim parallel which was pushing them away from the beach, I waited at least a half an hour and I was pretty terrified. I will never swim around Waterlemon if there is a current, it is very strong and could exhaust someone pretty easily.
They did say the snorkel was beautiful but they do admit to feeling panicked at at least one point when they were not getting anywhere.
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Tracy in WI
- Posts: 1624
- Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:39 am
- Location: Wisconsin
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
The following was posted on Facebook today.....
Active St John VI
Emily Wilson
If you decide to snorkel the north shore this week, beware of strong currents and swell.... I rescued two women from Waterlemon Cay this morning that were stranded on the rocks... too cut up and exhausted to swim back to their boat/shore.
Active St John VI
Emily Wilson
If you decide to snorkel the north shore this week, beware of strong currents and swell.... I rescued two women from Waterlemon Cay this morning that were stranded on the rocks... too cut up and exhausted to swim back to their boat/shore.
Tracy, Seaside Properties at Grande Bay
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
Thanks to all for posting their horrible incidents.
I am passionate about this. I have seen it for myself and have felt the fear of my friends.
Thanks for posting similar incidents. As I said, I'm not out to scare anyone or to create fear of people snorkeling waterlemon. I just want people to be realistic and realize that this is not an easy snorkel.
Waterlemon is brought up as one of the ultimate snorkels in St John..... and although extemely beautiful, it can be dangerous.
Thanks again.
I am passionate about this. I have seen it for myself and have felt the fear of my friends.
Thanks for posting similar incidents. As I said, I'm not out to scare anyone or to create fear of people snorkeling waterlemon. I just want people to be realistic and realize that this is not an easy snorkel.
Waterlemon is brought up as one of the ultimate snorkels in St John..... and although extemely beautiful, it can be dangerous.
Thanks again.
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mindehankins
- Posts: 3014
- Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:21 am
- Location: Western NY State
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
Mnfun, I'm with ya. I just want people to know what they may be getting in to. I don't think this forum is too bad, but on TA, people just LAUD the Waterlemon snorkel and rarely do you see any cautioning messages. I wonder if Anthony would consider making this (or a similar thread) a sticky?
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Teresa_Rae
- Posts: 2053
- Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:44 pm
- Location: Downstate IL
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
I've done the Waterlemon snorkel about 10 times, one of the times I was 5 months pregnant....always counterclockwise. It's been an easy snorkel all but once. The one time there was a strong current, it was pretty scary. I was swimming and swimming and just wasn't going anywhere. I had a flotation belt on, and after that experience, I'd never do that snorkel without one.
Let us live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.
- Mark Twain
- Mark Twain
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
We have only snorkeled around Waterlemon once, way back during our very first visit to St. John. That was the first deep crossing that our daughters (then ten and thirteen years old) had ever made, and they were a bit spooked when the bottom fell away, and you could no longer see anything but deep blue water. There were no currents at the time to speak of, though, which I now understand to be blind luck. I don't recall our circumnavigation (CCW, as it happened) as being very special in terms of coral or sea life, which, along with the long hike from where we left the cars, might explain why we haven't repeated it. There were nine of us, and we might not have known or taken the time to explore the waters around the Cay in depth, which are from other accounts very nice.
One place that I like to snorkel, with wonderful soft and hard corals, is on the point around and into Turtle Bay, from the west. It is a lengthy snorkel from Hawksnest, and a somewhat shorter one from Caneel. It is, I understand, a very short snorkel if one happens to be staying at Caneel and on that bay, but we have yet to spring for that. I had never encountered currents on the snorkel from Caneel before, but two years ago with my daughter's husband, heading to Turtle Bay was absolutely exhilarating; it was as if we were flying above the corals, swept along by the current. Individual waves modulated the current, so the experience alternated between short pauses, and soaring in high-speed bliss through an underwater wonderland. The trip back, however, was very challenging, and at times we felt that we were losing ground despite full fin exertion. It easy to see how being in this sort of situation could get the better of one.
Reflecting on the seemingly sporadic nature of the times when the going gets tough, and Teresa Rae's deep record of one scary snorkel in ten at Waterlemon, a few things occurred to me; among them: the primary driver of currents is the tides. The trade winds will produce a bias in surface currents from east to west, but tides are the wild card. Along large land masses, tides can be amplified by the extended topography, and the results can be dramatic (think Bay of Fundy). For small islands in the middle of the ocean, such as St. John, there are no long coastlines to focus the tides, and the resulting water level rise and fall are quite modest (think of the sand where we write our messages for the Spice Cam). Just because the water level doesn't change much, though, doesn't mean that the currents aren't affected, especially in spots where they are focused by the local topography. Everywhere, there are two high and two low tides per 24 hours, with low currents at the times of low and high tide, but strong flows three hours either side of these times. A smooth snorkel out to Waterlemon might simply be a matter of fortunate timing during the day. Another basic fact, though, is that tides are much larger during a new or a full moon, when the gravitational pull of the moon aligns with that of the sun. For an island like St. John, the water level rise and fall, while larger during a new or a full moon, is still pretty small, but the same increase in the local currents could be substantial. On the mainland, long stretches of populated coastline (I'm thinking of the Jersey shore) publish the tides in the newspaper every day for swimmers and boaters to use, but on St. John, determining the tides takes a bit more digging, and the casual visitor will not be aware of them. NOAA publishes tide data and forecasts for only one spot on St. John, via the research station out at Lameshur Bay. Here is a link to their website; it displays tide data, forecasts of tide levels, and the difference between the two:
http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/data_m ... Data%0D%0A
They seem to think that "St. John" needs an "s", and their graphing utility there can be a bit frustrating to use. I haven't been able to change the data sample rate to see more than a month at a time, but the twice a month increase in tides due to the sun aligning with the new and full moon is readily apparent.
[Edit] Reading through the thread again, I see where Lisa did mention an association with the moon. Bear in mind, though, that a full moon and a new moon both amplify tide strength, so the bad times to try exposed snorkels occur evert two weeks, and persist for several days either side of those dates.
A cautionary tale: After a year of working with Eric Lambert, a great builder on St. John, I was startled to find him the subject of an article in the Virgin Island Daily News. He had been scuba diving for lobsters in the waters near Chocolate Hole, alone (!), when the spotter on a friend's boat lost sight of him after he surfaced. Currents then swept him to a spot a mile and a half south-east of Dog Island (!), where he was found by a Coast Guard helicopter before day had ended. Had he still been in the water when the sun went down, who knows how things might have turned out. He had drifted nearly three miles with the currents, and had he not been found near Dog, the next landmass in that direction would have been Venezuela. Bear in mind that Eric has been living and diving on St. John for over thirty years; none of us have even remotely as much experience in these waters as he does. Article here:
http://virginislandsdailynews.com/news/ ... z1gc6ENsvk
So here are a few of my takeaways:
* Just because you have snorkeled somewhere once or more before, and "it was easy", doesn't mean that it will be this time.
* Avoid all challenging snorkels for a few days either side of a full or new moon.
* Snorkeling in the protected waters close in on many of St. John's bays gives one the impression that the sea is a placid medium. Extended snorkels along exposed islands and promontories can be an altogether different experience, with strong currents that may exceed the skill of even very proficient swimmers.
* While we all tend to giggle at the cruise ship folks that flood into Trunk Bay with their goofy yellow vests, you should be using an inflatable snorkel vest for any challenging snorkels. I have never owned or used one, but I am now going to buy several.
* If, at any point in a snorkel, you experience a new-found feeling of blissful soaring in the direction you are headed, stop right away, and get back to shore with as low-effort a path as possible (even if it isn't where you put in). For that matter, at any sign of an unexpected current of any substance, terminate the snorkel.
* Do not snorkel alone, and if your buddy becomes tired, you both need to head back.
* Sheer rocky cliffs and thick scrub vegetation (think Whistling Cay, site of a recent death) may not offer any realistic chance to go ashore and rest up when strong currents are encountered.
* The "don't fight it, tread water, or swim parallel to the shore" advice that helps with very local rip currents on straight mainland beaches may not help if you are experiencing a tidal current that is pulling you out to sea.
This post began as a "gee, our one time snorkeling Waterlemon was fine", but then morphed into something more serious. I have heard of occasional snorkeling deaths on St. John over the years, but never really "got it"; I had assumed that it wasn't the level of snorkeling challenge, but rather preexisting medical conditions, inexperienced or out of shape snorkelers, etc. I never understood that I was taking significant risks during my more adventuresome snorkels. Perhaps we need a sticky new thread on snorkeling safety here, and on Trip Advisor, that will help people understand the potentially deadly difference between a recreational and a risky snorkel, and how to recognize dangerous conditions.
All the best,
Kevin
One place that I like to snorkel, with wonderful soft and hard corals, is on the point around and into Turtle Bay, from the west. It is a lengthy snorkel from Hawksnest, and a somewhat shorter one from Caneel. It is, I understand, a very short snorkel if one happens to be staying at Caneel and on that bay, but we have yet to spring for that. I had never encountered currents on the snorkel from Caneel before, but two years ago with my daughter's husband, heading to Turtle Bay was absolutely exhilarating; it was as if we were flying above the corals, swept along by the current. Individual waves modulated the current, so the experience alternated between short pauses, and soaring in high-speed bliss through an underwater wonderland. The trip back, however, was very challenging, and at times we felt that we were losing ground despite full fin exertion. It easy to see how being in this sort of situation could get the better of one.
Reflecting on the seemingly sporadic nature of the times when the going gets tough, and Teresa Rae's deep record of one scary snorkel in ten at Waterlemon, a few things occurred to me; among them: the primary driver of currents is the tides. The trade winds will produce a bias in surface currents from east to west, but tides are the wild card. Along large land masses, tides can be amplified by the extended topography, and the results can be dramatic (think Bay of Fundy). For small islands in the middle of the ocean, such as St. John, there are no long coastlines to focus the tides, and the resulting water level rise and fall are quite modest (think of the sand where we write our messages for the Spice Cam). Just because the water level doesn't change much, though, doesn't mean that the currents aren't affected, especially in spots where they are focused by the local topography. Everywhere, there are two high and two low tides per 24 hours, with low currents at the times of low and high tide, but strong flows three hours either side of these times. A smooth snorkel out to Waterlemon might simply be a matter of fortunate timing during the day. Another basic fact, though, is that tides are much larger during a new or a full moon, when the gravitational pull of the moon aligns with that of the sun. For an island like St. John, the water level rise and fall, while larger during a new or a full moon, is still pretty small, but the same increase in the local currents could be substantial. On the mainland, long stretches of populated coastline (I'm thinking of the Jersey shore) publish the tides in the newspaper every day for swimmers and boaters to use, but on St. John, determining the tides takes a bit more digging, and the casual visitor will not be aware of them. NOAA publishes tide data and forecasts for only one spot on St. John, via the research station out at Lameshur Bay. Here is a link to their website; it displays tide data, forecasts of tide levels, and the difference between the two:
http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/data_m ... Data%0D%0A
They seem to think that "St. John" needs an "s", and their graphing utility there can be a bit frustrating to use. I haven't been able to change the data sample rate to see more than a month at a time, but the twice a month increase in tides due to the sun aligning with the new and full moon is readily apparent.
[Edit] Reading through the thread again, I see where Lisa did mention an association with the moon. Bear in mind, though, that a full moon and a new moon both amplify tide strength, so the bad times to try exposed snorkels occur evert two weeks, and persist for several days either side of those dates.
A cautionary tale: After a year of working with Eric Lambert, a great builder on St. John, I was startled to find him the subject of an article in the Virgin Island Daily News. He had been scuba diving for lobsters in the waters near Chocolate Hole, alone (!), when the spotter on a friend's boat lost sight of him after he surfaced. Currents then swept him to a spot a mile and a half south-east of Dog Island (!), where he was found by a Coast Guard helicopter before day had ended. Had he still been in the water when the sun went down, who knows how things might have turned out. He had drifted nearly three miles with the currents, and had he not been found near Dog, the next landmass in that direction would have been Venezuela. Bear in mind that Eric has been living and diving on St. John for over thirty years; none of us have even remotely as much experience in these waters as he does. Article here:
http://virginislandsdailynews.com/news/ ... z1gc6ENsvk
So here are a few of my takeaways:
* Just because you have snorkeled somewhere once or more before, and "it was easy", doesn't mean that it will be this time.
* Avoid all challenging snorkels for a few days either side of a full or new moon.
* Snorkeling in the protected waters close in on many of St. John's bays gives one the impression that the sea is a placid medium. Extended snorkels along exposed islands and promontories can be an altogether different experience, with strong currents that may exceed the skill of even very proficient swimmers.
* While we all tend to giggle at the cruise ship folks that flood into Trunk Bay with their goofy yellow vests, you should be using an inflatable snorkel vest for any challenging snorkels. I have never owned or used one, but I am now going to buy several.
* If, at any point in a snorkel, you experience a new-found feeling of blissful soaring in the direction you are headed, stop right away, and get back to shore with as low-effort a path as possible (even if it isn't where you put in). For that matter, at any sign of an unexpected current of any substance, terminate the snorkel.
* Do not snorkel alone, and if your buddy becomes tired, you both need to head back.
* Sheer rocky cliffs and thick scrub vegetation (think Whistling Cay, site of a recent death) may not offer any realistic chance to go ashore and rest up when strong currents are encountered.
* The "don't fight it, tread water, or swim parallel to the shore" advice that helps with very local rip currents on straight mainland beaches may not help if you are experiencing a tidal current that is pulling you out to sea.
This post began as a "gee, our one time snorkeling Waterlemon was fine", but then morphed into something more serious. I have heard of occasional snorkeling deaths on St. John over the years, but never really "got it"; I had assumed that it wasn't the level of snorkeling challenge, but rather preexisting medical conditions, inexperienced or out of shape snorkelers, etc. I never understood that I was taking significant risks during my more adventuresome snorkels. Perhaps we need a sticky new thread on snorkeling safety here, and on Trip Advisor, that will help people understand the potentially deadly difference between a recreational and a risky snorkel, and how to recognize dangerous conditions.
All the best,
Kevin
Last edited by Coconuts on Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
Kevin,
Even in the wee hours of the morn you are here to jump in and teach us all something! 2:49am? Seriously?
I knew we could count on you to bring the scientific piece to the whole story. Thank you, thank you. If Anthony would be so kind as to sticky your post it would be very helpful to those who are trying to determine if Waterlemon or other snorkels are places they want to risk snorkeling.
I guess it all became so apparent to me in January as we continued to watch the helicopters search for the body of the gentleman who was not so lucky on his vacation to St. John. Every snorkel opportunity is a treasure and as Kevin said, each snorkel can be different each time you do it.
Although Mr. Lambert had been diving for 40+ years he states that you need to respect the waters. So true, so true.
Lisa
Even in the wee hours of the morn you are here to jump in and teach us all something! 2:49am? Seriously?
I knew we could count on you to bring the scientific piece to the whole story. Thank you, thank you. If Anthony would be so kind as to sticky your post it would be very helpful to those who are trying to determine if Waterlemon or other snorkels are places they want to risk snorkeling.
I guess it all became so apparent to me in January as we continued to watch the helicopters search for the body of the gentleman who was not so lucky on his vacation to St. John. Every snorkel opportunity is a treasure and as Kevin said, each snorkel can be different each time you do it.
Although Mr. Lambert had been diving for 40+ years he states that you need to respect the waters. So true, so true.
Lisa
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
Lisa: "2:49am? Seriously?"
I just got back from a week on business in Switzerland, and my internal clocks are a bit askew. A sticky makes sense, though; I'll edit the post down to some essentials, and see what Anthony thinks of the idea.
All the best,
Kevin
I just got back from a week on business in Switzerland, and my internal clocks are a bit askew. A sticky makes sense, though; I'll edit the post down to some essentials, and see what Anthony thinks of the idea.
All the best,
Kevin
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
Thanks, Kevin! I could tell when I met you in January that you like to stay busy but I thought 2:49 was a bit "too" busy - even for you! Darn trips to Switzerland will do it everytime! (like I know - LOL)
Welcome back to the states and may you find slumber!
Your information was valuable but as I try to read the charts on that link, which ones should I focus on. Are you clicking on the "tide water level data" on the left? Verified data or extremes? I will actually use this (if I can understand it well enough) to plan trips. After that first year visiting, I have always planned around the lunar calendar.
Welcome back to the states and may you find slumber!
Your information was valuable but as I try to read the charts on that link, which ones should I focus on. Are you clicking on the "tide water level data" on the left? Verified data or extremes? I will actually use this (if I can understand it well enough) to plan trips. After that first year visiting, I have always planned around the lunar calendar.
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mindehankins
- Posts: 3014
- Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:21 am
- Location: Western NY State
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
Awesome, detailed response, Kevin! Thank you, and I look forward to a little more detail on the charts as well.
As far as the sticky, I emailed Anthony about it last night. I think that all of the personal anecdotes help to validate the cautions, though. I don't think they should be eliminated. It would be easy for newbies to deem one post as being an over-reaction. Multiple stories makes the information more difficult to dismiss.
As far as the sticky, I emailed Anthony about it last night. I think that all of the personal anecdotes help to validate the cautions, though. I don't think they should be eliminated. It would be easy for newbies to deem one post as being an over-reaction. Multiple stories makes the information more difficult to dismiss.
Re: Another snorkeler died in waters off of St. John
Thanks, Minde.... I a!gree 100%!
Kevin.... do you plan to post on Trip Advisor as well?
I really want to make this a priority for myself to start watching TA for posts regarding Waterlemon or Whistling Cay.... again, my goal isn't to scare anyone off, it's just to add the perspective of caution that these may not be a the easy snorkel people were anticipating.
Kevin.... do you plan to post on Trip Advisor as well?
I really want to make this a priority for myself to start watching TA for posts regarding Waterlemon or Whistling Cay.... again, my goal isn't to scare anyone off, it's just to add the perspective of caution that these may not be a the easy snorkel people were anticipating.