usvi-on-line
Tourist killed after being caught in gang crossfire
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yourtheexpert
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:05 pm
- Location: St John
@Mit43:
Show me an example of where it has worked. Billions of dollars wasted that could have went to more useful programs.
A small amount of the money spent by the USA on its corporate prison system could do wonders for a variety of head start type programs in the USVI.
Look at Mexico, Look at the history of liquor prohibition and how it lead to a rise in gangs and violence.
Now think. Don't just dismiss the idea because it seems radical.
Show me an example of where it has worked. Billions of dollars wasted that could have went to more useful programs.
A small amount of the money spent by the USA on its corporate prison system could do wonders for a variety of head start type programs in the USVI.
Look at Mexico, Look at the history of liquor prohibition and how it lead to a rise in gangs and violence.
Now think. Don't just dismiss the idea because it seems radical.
It's hard for me to believe that decriminalization of drugs will help. It just make for more zombie like folks walking around.
I have always said that there is a policing problem in the VI's. When you have the local cops having a good chance of being related to the criminal, living in the same area as the criminal, being close to families of the criminal, you cannot expect good policing. I think one answer is for the federal government to send in police and rotate them in and out every 6 to 9 months. No connection to the VI's, just good policing.
The problem is beyond simply education and good parenting. Let that happen while the federalized police do their job.
To paraphrase a local STT resident who has stated, make the streets safe for the locals, and there won't be an issue with the tourist.
I have always said that there is a policing problem in the VI's. When you have the local cops having a good chance of being related to the criminal, living in the same area as the criminal, being close to families of the criminal, you cannot expect good policing. I think one answer is for the federal government to send in police and rotate them in and out every 6 to 9 months. No connection to the VI's, just good policing.
The problem is beyond simply education and good parenting. Let that happen while the federalized police do their job.
To paraphrase a local STT resident who has stated, make the streets safe for the locals, and there won't be an issue with the tourist.
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Timethief
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 10:51 am
- Location: Southeast of Disorder (aka Western Massachusetts)
First of all, I do feel for the family of the girl who got caught in the wrong place at the wrong time, as well a for the girl herself. We shall never know what she could have become, or what change in the world could have happened because of her. It is a terrible example of things that happen almost everywhere in the world.
And not to sound too defeatist, but this is an interesting discussion - not for the ideas that come out, but for the approaches people aply to the solution.
Legalizing drugs could have the effect of reducing gang violence. But it quite likely will spawn a whole series of different crimes - manslaughter caused by driving under the influence, accidents in general, and who knows what else. That might be better - I am not sure.
But the gangs that currently run the drugs will definitely find their cashflow stunted. And you know how it is when you get used to a certain standard of living - you don't want to reduce it. So, what will they do? Then next most profitable and "clean" business tends to be human trafficing and prostitution. Gonna make that legal too? And let's presume they *don't* go for that option? They are organized and well armed (as we have already seen), so why not just rob the local population or charge for protection - maybe just storm the banks? In the end, they are not going away.
The concept of federalizing the police duties is essentially called an occupation of the local population. That is how England started out with the Irish in the early 60s, I believe. Ask the people (who initially cheered when the Brits arrived) how that worked out thru the late 60s, the 70s, 80s, and 90s.
Anyone remember when the National Guard was used in Puerto Rico to go into a housing development in the 80s?
Today, most communities in the States have some sort of program usually called Community Policing - an effort for the cops to know and interact more closely with the people they are sworn to protect and serve. Back in the 50s and 60s, that led to the rise of the Mafia and organized crime in NYC (and other major metropolitan areas). Anyone know about corruption and police influence in Chicago? When you add money (lots of money), you get an over powerful police authority, and the flourishing of organized crime. If the bad guys are smart (and occassionally they are), they keep things calm, make their money, and the local population enjoys a degree of calm and security.
When they do get greedy, things get crazy, people are hurt by the score, and politicians and the feds crack down - witness the early 70s NYC. No more cops on the beat (too much fraternization with the local) and keep them in the cars, so we can keep tabs on them. Then you get a situation like NYC of the later 70s, where there was a true disconnect and a lack of concern for the local population by the police, and crime, especially gangs flourish, and no one knows anything, because intelligence is impossible to get (we're not interacting with the locals anymore, are we?).
It is called the law of unintended consequences.
In reality, thing won't change until pretty much everyone there believes in something greater than themselves. Mom, apple pie, and all that. Parental responsibility, personal responsibility, respect of the law, responsible application of the law, and a sincere desire for order and peace all have to happen - at the same time. Not really all that likely.
One problem with paradise is that people actually believe that it *is* paradise. The people of paradise are just like everyone else in the world, just with a better backdrop. On one of the other threads, the question was asked "What don't you like about St John?" or something similar. When someone brought up that people were not as friendly as some had made them out to be (people on the forums, websites, and travel brochures), it started this whole thing about how rude the tourists were, how people didn't really understand the locals, etc. Te reality is that there are nice people, rude people, stupid people, and indifferent people on the island - and hopefully you get to meet the good ones. In the end, paradise is just as wonderous as the big city - just different.
I for one will go back to paradise when I can. I will also be alert and watchful of my surrounds, as I do pretty much wherever I am (freaked my wife out in Grand Cayman when I said we were going to go into some store she had no real interest in because I saw 3 guys armed with automatic weapons waiting on the street. Given it was Grand Cayman, they were probably just security for a big cash transfer (they looked like they knew what they were doing), but why find out I was wrong in that assessment? We shopped). I will pray for the family of the people hurt and killed, and for the people of the VI, hoping they get themselves out of a tough situation, before it gets much worse (anyone recall this spring when the Jamacan authorities tried to serve an arrest warrant on a drug boss?).
Sorry if I come across a bit pessimistic. I am not, actually - quite the opposite really. But I like to deal with my tragedies with a kernnel of sober reality, in order to come to terms with it.
I yield the soapbox.
And not to sound too defeatist, but this is an interesting discussion - not for the ideas that come out, but for the approaches people aply to the solution.
Legalizing drugs could have the effect of reducing gang violence. But it quite likely will spawn a whole series of different crimes - manslaughter caused by driving under the influence, accidents in general, and who knows what else. That might be better - I am not sure.
But the gangs that currently run the drugs will definitely find their cashflow stunted. And you know how it is when you get used to a certain standard of living - you don't want to reduce it. So, what will they do? Then next most profitable and "clean" business tends to be human trafficing and prostitution. Gonna make that legal too? And let's presume they *don't* go for that option? They are organized and well armed (as we have already seen), so why not just rob the local population or charge for protection - maybe just storm the banks? In the end, they are not going away.
The concept of federalizing the police duties is essentially called an occupation of the local population. That is how England started out with the Irish in the early 60s, I believe. Ask the people (who initially cheered when the Brits arrived) how that worked out thru the late 60s, the 70s, 80s, and 90s.
Anyone remember when the National Guard was used in Puerto Rico to go into a housing development in the 80s?
Today, most communities in the States have some sort of program usually called Community Policing - an effort for the cops to know and interact more closely with the people they are sworn to protect and serve. Back in the 50s and 60s, that led to the rise of the Mafia and organized crime in NYC (and other major metropolitan areas). Anyone know about corruption and police influence in Chicago? When you add money (lots of money), you get an over powerful police authority, and the flourishing of organized crime. If the bad guys are smart (and occassionally they are), they keep things calm, make their money, and the local population enjoys a degree of calm and security.
When they do get greedy, things get crazy, people are hurt by the score, and politicians and the feds crack down - witness the early 70s NYC. No more cops on the beat (too much fraternization with the local) and keep them in the cars, so we can keep tabs on them. Then you get a situation like NYC of the later 70s, where there was a true disconnect and a lack of concern for the local population by the police, and crime, especially gangs flourish, and no one knows anything, because intelligence is impossible to get (we're not interacting with the locals anymore, are we?).
It is called the law of unintended consequences.
In reality, thing won't change until pretty much everyone there believes in something greater than themselves. Mom, apple pie, and all that. Parental responsibility, personal responsibility, respect of the law, responsible application of the law, and a sincere desire for order and peace all have to happen - at the same time. Not really all that likely.
One problem with paradise is that people actually believe that it *is* paradise. The people of paradise are just like everyone else in the world, just with a better backdrop. On one of the other threads, the question was asked "What don't you like about St John?" or something similar. When someone brought up that people were not as friendly as some had made them out to be (people on the forums, websites, and travel brochures), it started this whole thing about how rude the tourists were, how people didn't really understand the locals, etc. Te reality is that there are nice people, rude people, stupid people, and indifferent people on the island - and hopefully you get to meet the good ones. In the end, paradise is just as wonderous as the big city - just different.
I for one will go back to paradise when I can. I will also be alert and watchful of my surrounds, as I do pretty much wherever I am (freaked my wife out in Grand Cayman when I said we were going to go into some store she had no real interest in because I saw 3 guys armed with automatic weapons waiting on the street. Given it was Grand Cayman, they were probably just security for a big cash transfer (they looked like they knew what they were doing), but why find out I was wrong in that assessment? We shopped). I will pray for the family of the people hurt and killed, and for the people of the VI, hoping they get themselves out of a tough situation, before it gets much worse (anyone recall this spring when the Jamacan authorities tried to serve an arrest warrant on a drug boss?).
Sorry if I come across a bit pessimistic. I am not, actually - quite the opposite really. But I like to deal with my tragedies with a kernnel of sober reality, in order to come to terms with it.
I yield the soapbox.
-Peter
I would much rather die while I am living, than live while I am dead!
I would much rather die while I am living, than live while I am dead!
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RidgeRunner
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:28 pm
- Location: WNC
@Peter who traveled through time.
1. That young girl was actually in the RIGHT place at the wrong time.
2. Check your history. The British didn't just show up in '60's. They showed up a long time earlier. Remember Oliver Cromwell. I also don't believe the Irish ever cheered when you claim the English arrived.
3. The National Guard in PR is under the command of the governor of PR.
4. So community policing in the '50's and '60's gave rise to the Mafia?
5. Seems you have a low respect for the police.
I'm now bored.
1. That young girl was actually in the RIGHT place at the wrong time.
2. Check your history. The British didn't just show up in '60's. They showed up a long time earlier. Remember Oliver Cromwell. I also don't believe the Irish ever cheered when you claim the English arrived.
3. The National Guard in PR is under the command of the governor of PR.
4. So community policing in the '50's and '60's gave rise to the Mafia?
5. Seems you have a low respect for the police.
I'm now bored.
actually he got the squeegee guys off the street by making illegal a rather benign institution (and a few other things) I really think that it was the economic boom that actually cleaned up NY--djmom wrote:Guiliani for USVI Governor!
Now don't go all political on me.
But he did clean up NY real good.
hmmm second thought--get him out of here-- the USVI might be a great place for Rudy
< leaving on the 22nd of march...but too lame to figure out the ticker thing again!>
This is sad. Very sad. This kind of stuff happens in our town as well. We just went through a huge drug bust. The police did an excellent job in rounding up close to 30 folks in a large ring. Now there are complaints from addicts that our town is dry. 
I have to admit, however, that when we drove down the road to Coki, I told my husband to turn around. It just looked crowded and strange.
I have to admit, however, that when we drove down the road to Coki, I told my husband to turn around. It just looked crowded and strange.
Gromit, I agree. I feel really bad for any community with ineffective law enforcement. The tourism dollars are not going to continue pouring in if tourists question their safety.Gromit wrote: Clearly there are systemic problems that will not be solved overnight and can certainly not be solved by us. The people of the VI's need to seek that change and many are doing so. . . .
In the meantime, I am looking forward to my two weeks on Jost and STJ in December and will continue to travel to the VI.
Of course, my packing list includes a machete. So I'm good
It is possible, even likely, that the locals aren't happy with the job law enforcement has been doing. Maybe this is the ammunition they need to speak out and insist on changes.
I really think that if tourism slows down that the people of the usvi's will have more leverage to insist on their safety and the safety of tourists.
Have a great trip Gromit. I love your trip reports and I am looking forward to reading about this trip.
xoxo
That's why they have to crack down on that area. Rebuild, get the druggies out, let the vendors have a safe place to sell what they want. Clean up the street for a beautiful beach.Terry wrote:This is sad. Very sad. This kind of stuff happens in our town as well. We just went through a huge drug bust. The police did an excellent job in rounding up close to 30 folks in a large ring. Now there are complaints from addicts that our town is dry.
I have to admit, however, that when we drove down the road to Coki, I told my husband to turn around. It just looked crowded and strange.
I feel terrible, especially for the family of the girl killed. Paradise lost.
The drug/gang scums can go to hell.
I've been following all of the posts, which in my opinion have digressed into peripheral "fixes".
I've booked a trip (about our 15th) for next May with my family; I am seriously considering cancelling and going elsewhere. I do not feel comfortable putting my family in harms way. When they shoot each other in broad daylight where we shop and visit, and I have no way to defend my family and the police will not or cannot, I think it is a poor risk.
It's not that the USVI are unique, just that crime and killings have risen to the level that it becomes a measured risk to visit.
We've personally heard the jokes about the police in their brand new cars who never arrest anyone because they are related to them, the crime that never even gets investigated, or the new/naive policeman who arrests someone one time only to see him released before he gets back on the street.
The solutions? I'm not an expert, but first I'd bring in off island professional police and independent judges.
This is out of control, and the joking about public safety incompetence and laxity and nepotism need to stop and someone at the government level take their job seriously; apparently none do, OR THEY NEED HELP.
If this scares off enough tourists and cruise ships, and the tourist cash cow (and related US subsidies)dries up, what next?
I feel terrible for the honest, decent residents.
This is sickening.
The drug/gang scums can go to hell.
I've been following all of the posts, which in my opinion have digressed into peripheral "fixes".
I've booked a trip (about our 15th) for next May with my family; I am seriously considering cancelling and going elsewhere. I do not feel comfortable putting my family in harms way. When they shoot each other in broad daylight where we shop and visit, and I have no way to defend my family and the police will not or cannot, I think it is a poor risk.
It's not that the USVI are unique, just that crime and killings have risen to the level that it becomes a measured risk to visit.
We've personally heard the jokes about the police in their brand new cars who never arrest anyone because they are related to them, the crime that never even gets investigated, or the new/naive policeman who arrests someone one time only to see him released before he gets back on the street.
The solutions? I'm not an expert, but first I'd bring in off island professional police and independent judges.
This is out of control, and the joking about public safety incompetence and laxity and nepotism need to stop and someone at the government level take their job seriously; apparently none do, OR THEY NEED HELP.
If this scares off enough tourists and cruise ships, and the tourist cash cow (and related US subsidies)dries up, what next?
I feel terrible for the honest, decent residents.
This is sickening.
Jake
John, I think I would be less cautious if it were just my husband and I. I do not feel comfortable putting my family in harms way either. I see a lot of posts on other forums, and a few here, saying that crime is everywhere and to take normal precautions. But, it is the helplessness and unreliability of the people that are suppose to protect us that bothers me. Maybe I will feel better about it eventually but right now I don't want to bring my kids.
I agree with your post. I really hope the locals put pressure on their leaders. Not just for the tourists but for themselves.
xoxo
.It's not that the USVI are unique, just that crime and killings have risen to the level that it becomes a measured risk to visit
I agree with your post. I really hope the locals put pressure on their leaders. Not just for the tourists but for themselves.
xoxo
I have a few rambling opinions here:
How many of us have read Don't Stop The Carnival? Probably a lot. it's funny how the somewhat-sensationalized portrayal of the Kinjan cops is eerily similar to what you see on little islands (or for that matter small communities)
Safety: Where can you go and not encounter crime? How many of the islands (keeping it topical) don't have a lot of people who are severely economically depressed and have resorted to "bad behavior" as a way to make ends meet? I guess if you went to a gated/guarded All-Inclusive, the odds are that you'd run into fewer locals. That's an option.
But...where does anyone think they can go on an island vacation and not stand out like a sore thumb and be a possible target for someone looking for a quick score of cash/jewelry/gadgets? Hell...I don't go to certain parts of Raleigh for that reason and that's 5 miles from my house...to say nothing of going to St. Somewhere.
What happened (and the manner in which it happened) is horrible. In my opinion, as a lot of people say, you need to be cautious no matter where you go. If a beach/bar/street looks sketchy or has a reputation; move on. There are other places to go. I'm not implying that anyone "asked for this". That's not my point. (You know what comes next).
But, saying "I'm never going to the USVI again because it's not safe", to me, is short-sighted. Where are you going to go that's safe?
But...in long-awaited conclusion...if the residents of the islands are getting fed up with things, that may be a very good sign. Those of us who jet in for a week or 2 at a time can't change the way their system works...only they can.
And...there goes the thread down the political toilet.
How many of us have read Don't Stop The Carnival? Probably a lot. it's funny how the somewhat-sensationalized portrayal of the Kinjan cops is eerily similar to what you see on little islands (or for that matter small communities)
Safety: Where can you go and not encounter crime? How many of the islands (keeping it topical) don't have a lot of people who are severely economically depressed and have resorted to "bad behavior" as a way to make ends meet? I guess if you went to a gated/guarded All-Inclusive, the odds are that you'd run into fewer locals. That's an option.
But...where does anyone think they can go on an island vacation and not stand out like a sore thumb and be a possible target for someone looking for a quick score of cash/jewelry/gadgets? Hell...I don't go to certain parts of Raleigh for that reason and that's 5 miles from my house...to say nothing of going to St. Somewhere.
What happened (and the manner in which it happened) is horrible. In my opinion, as a lot of people say, you need to be cautious no matter where you go. If a beach/bar/street looks sketchy or has a reputation; move on. There are other places to go. I'm not implying that anyone "asked for this". That's not my point. (You know what comes next).
But, saying "I'm never going to the USVI again because it's not safe", to me, is short-sighted. Where are you going to go that's safe?
But...in long-awaited conclusion...if the residents of the islands are getting fed up with things, that may be a very good sign. Those of us who jet in for a week or 2 at a time can't change the way their system works...only they can.
And...there goes the thread down the political toilet.