usvi-on-line
Iowa is a surprising place
Funny that sounds so judgmental on your part, SJ.SJfromNJ wrote:Flip - I don't care where you got married or by whom. You sounded so proud of where you were married and that a great Christian preacher married you so I concluded that since you are not religios, that being married in such a mannor is, how do I say this gently, HYPOCRITICAL. It was just a passing thought.
Did it occur to you that 1) I was marrying in a place of extreme significance to me because that is where I met my husband and 2) that the minister of my chosing was in honor of my mother who is one very Christian lady. Amazing how we managed and he was more than willing to be inclusive and consistent with my beliefs and those of the man I love. He is by far the most pure Christian spirit I have ever known. So very unlike you, he does not judge. He leaves that to his God. He instead focuses on the goodness and purity in people and helping them find their path, vs. condemning them or judging them. It has all worked out so beautifully for us and I could not be happier.
I try to do good because it is the right thing to do, not because of some fear that I will be judged in the afterlife.
It never ceases to amaze me how closed minded some of such a beautiful faith can be. I will never believe that the God I seek would condone that way of thinking. Inclusion, tolerance, love, peace. All the lessons I learned in Sunday school.
I don't believe that being gay is a sin. I think people are fundamentally who they are and can no more choose who they are attracted to than they can choose to be left or right handed. Us lefties only make up less than 10% of the population, was that God's mistake? Or did he intend for us to be different?
Repressing someone's sexuality is as bad as any other form of repression. I would argue the world would be a better place if we approached these differences with love and tolerance instead of hatred, judgement and shame. Forcing someone to live a lie to satisfy your, or religious, or societial norms is beyond sad.
You know the left handed analogy is actually closer to home than you think in this whole discussion.
True story....
My mother is left handed. She was raised Primitive Baptist in a very Baptist community in the south.
For those who are not familiar with Primitive Baptists: No dancing, no card playing, women must wear skirts and dresses (no pants), and when you're baptized they literally take you out to a creek or a river. That's just the basics.
Anyway, so my Mom was born left handed.
Well one day when she was about 9, the preacher started preaching that a child who is left handed has been inhabited by the devil. That being left handed was a sin and a sign of the devil. He quoted scripture from the bible that proved what he was saying was true. He said that being left handed was not natural and against Gods plan.
He urged all the teachers in the congregation to make the left handed children use only their right hands to write and do do whatever was necessary to "beat the devil out of the children."
My mother's teacher also attended the same church.
For the rest of the school year my mother was beaten with a ruler and punished in various ways every time she tried to use her left hand for anything.
My mother is a wonderful woman, a registered nurse and would give you the shirt off of her back. And guess what? She is still left handed -- although she can use her right hand (she's sort of ambidextrous as a result) but she was most definitely traumatized during this period in her life.
I guess one could argue that she CHOSE to be left handed, since her right hand is perfectly usable. But she is naturally left handed. She was born that way and contrary to that preachers opinion and the efforts by everyone to beat it out of her she was STIL left handed. She was not a sinner simply because she was left handed, despite what he said.
Apparently in the 1950's this kind of thing was very common across the US and religions, including public and religion based schools.
There's an interesting blog post I came across that references this as well:
http://asksistermarymartha.blogspot.com ... might.html
And another interesting article on the matter:
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv ... enDocument
True story....
My mother is left handed. She was raised Primitive Baptist in a very Baptist community in the south.
For those who are not familiar with Primitive Baptists: No dancing, no card playing, women must wear skirts and dresses (no pants), and when you're baptized they literally take you out to a creek or a river. That's just the basics.
Anyway, so my Mom was born left handed.
Well one day when she was about 9, the preacher started preaching that a child who is left handed has been inhabited by the devil. That being left handed was a sin and a sign of the devil. He quoted scripture from the bible that proved what he was saying was true. He said that being left handed was not natural and against Gods plan.
He urged all the teachers in the congregation to make the left handed children use only their right hands to write and do do whatever was necessary to "beat the devil out of the children."
My mother's teacher also attended the same church.
For the rest of the school year my mother was beaten with a ruler and punished in various ways every time she tried to use her left hand for anything.
My mother is a wonderful woman, a registered nurse and would give you the shirt off of her back. And guess what? She is still left handed -- although she can use her right hand (she's sort of ambidextrous as a result) but she was most definitely traumatized during this period in her life.
I guess one could argue that she CHOSE to be left handed, since her right hand is perfectly usable. But she is naturally left handed. She was born that way and contrary to that preachers opinion and the efforts by everyone to beat it out of her she was STIL left handed. She was not a sinner simply because she was left handed, despite what he said.
Apparently in the 1950's this kind of thing was very common across the US and religions, including public and religion based schools.
There's an interesting blog post I came across that references this as well:
http://asksistermarymartha.blogspot.com ... might.html
And another interesting article on the matter:
http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv ... enDocument
*Another fine scatterbrained production
I got to Catholic school a little late, so I missed seeing the left-handed beatings. However, one of my teachers, who was a former nun, told us they did happen. She was left-handed and tried to switch even though she never quite managed.
People are afraid of things that are different than what they are used to. But maybe if instead of ignoring or judging they made an effort to get to know the person behind whatever they were opposed to, they would realize we're not really that different.
I try to get to know people for WHO they are not what they are. It's really just the best way to be.
People are afraid of things that are different than what they are used to. But maybe if instead of ignoring or judging they made an effort to get to know the person behind whatever they were opposed to, they would realize we're not really that different.
I try to get to know people for WHO they are not what they are. It's really just the best way to be.
Just some of my random thoughts concerning this thread:
Thanks, Rick, for the link.
I've talked to a few gays over the years regarding their way of being. They knew they were "different" as far back in their consciousness as they could remember. Their being different was something that they were ashamed of because their family, their church, society in general made them feel ashamed and afraid. Today,many homosexuals are standing proud regarding their gayness. Me,I don't think that they should be proud, or ashamed. I don't know how God feels regarding how they should feel either, because unlike some other folks, He's never told me how He feels about it, and I don't presume to know His workings and ways. Most medical experts today say that homosexuality is not a choice, that people are born that way. If that's true then how can it be a sin? I guess if your church has told you that it is immoral, then to you it is immoral. As I jokingly said in an earlier post, I don't understand why gays are gay. I'll even admit that public displays of affection by gays gives me the willy's, yet I don't think twice with the same displays made by straights. But to me as an American, homosexuality between consenting adults, and legal marriage contracts between two consenting adults shouldn't be a crime either. To me, the union should be be afforded the same legal benefits, and consequences, as a heterosexual marriage.
Someone earlier said that God has been consistent throughout history regarding homosexuality. Well, I must say that until very recently, somebody's god has been pretty consistent throughout history in looking the other way when it came to sexual abuse of children by hundreds of priests, ministers and other leaders of congregations. Now, in the church that I was raised, that was supposed to be a mortal sin. In my book the people in power that swept it under the rug were at least as guilty as the abusers themselves. Yet, often it is the leaders of these same establishments and congregations that tell us that homosexuality is a sin. Forgive me for my being cynical of what they have to say.
Though a lot of good has been done in the name of God, a lot of evil has also been done throughout the history of this world in the name of [somebody's] God,too.
Lex, I too find what happened in Iowa to be pretty remarkable.
JT
Thanks, Rick, for the link.
I've talked to a few gays over the years regarding their way of being. They knew they were "different" as far back in their consciousness as they could remember. Their being different was something that they were ashamed of because their family, their church, society in general made them feel ashamed and afraid. Today,many homosexuals are standing proud regarding their gayness. Me,I don't think that they should be proud, or ashamed. I don't know how God feels regarding how they should feel either, because unlike some other folks, He's never told me how He feels about it, and I don't presume to know His workings and ways. Most medical experts today say that homosexuality is not a choice, that people are born that way. If that's true then how can it be a sin? I guess if your church has told you that it is immoral, then to you it is immoral. As I jokingly said in an earlier post, I don't understand why gays are gay. I'll even admit that public displays of affection by gays gives me the willy's, yet I don't think twice with the same displays made by straights. But to me as an American, homosexuality between consenting adults, and legal marriage contracts between two consenting adults shouldn't be a crime either. To me, the union should be be afforded the same legal benefits, and consequences, as a heterosexual marriage.
Someone earlier said that God has been consistent throughout history regarding homosexuality. Well, I must say that until very recently, somebody's god has been pretty consistent throughout history in looking the other way when it came to sexual abuse of children by hundreds of priests, ministers and other leaders of congregations. Now, in the church that I was raised, that was supposed to be a mortal sin. In my book the people in power that swept it under the rug were at least as guilty as the abusers themselves. Yet, often it is the leaders of these same establishments and congregations that tell us that homosexuality is a sin. Forgive me for my being cynical of what they have to say.
Though a lot of good has been done in the name of God, a lot of evil has also been done throughout the history of this world in the name of [somebody's] God,too.
Lex, I too find what happened in Iowa to be pretty remarkable.
JT
When you find yourself in a hole.... quit digging.
You said:
"Gromit - Many weird things have been done by men in the name of God. This does not make them right or lend any validity to them."
EXACTLY. I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF!!!!
I'm guessing subtley isn't your strong suit.... (hint: apply that statement to EVERYTHING that you have said on this thread.)
Off to pray now... to thank God for circular logic.
"Gromit - Many weird things have been done by men in the name of God. This does not make them right or lend any validity to them."
EXACTLY. I COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER MYSELF!!!!
I'm guessing subtley isn't your strong suit.... (hint: apply that statement to EVERYTHING that you have said on this thread.)
Off to pray now... to thank God for circular logic.
*Another fine scatterbrained production
Wow, now I am condemned. Interesting. My words do nothing to condemn me. I never said I was not religious, just that I was not part of an organized religion. There is a difference. I swore an oath before all that were instrumental and loving in my life and to the higher power that I believe exists even if it doesn't mirror the image of your God. If you think that condemns me then that says far more about you than me.SJfromNJ wrote:Flip - Your own words judge you. Did I condemn you? Like I said your wedding was more of and outward show for your Mom, family and friends rather than to swear an oath before God (Christian). I bet it was a beautiful day.
Another great biblical quote, "“Do not judge, or you too will be judged." That squares well in my universe, how about yours?
You know, SJ, I find your logic about thieves to be illogical. Thievery is not a victimless crime, someone is hurt by it, therefore it is immoral. I don't see any relevance in your point.
As to whether one is born queer, or not,I don't have any more to go on then what the few gay people that I've spoken to say and the medical experts claiming that that's the way it is. My only question is why the fluck should any one else care?
As to the churches, and not just the Catholics, I also find your logic flawed. The guilty abusers are subject to judgement and punishment in the here and now. Their bishops and archbishops that covered up for them should be in jail, too. Like the thief, their crimes had victims, unlike gay marriages. The only thing more unnatural then their acts was for anybody to expect them to be asexual in the first place.
Look SJ, You believe with blind faith, and more power to you. I'm not going to change your moral feelings regarding gays. I also see the rights of American citizens to be free on this issue different then you do. I wish that I could get you to see that the moral issue and legal issue is not always consistently the same thing. I also think that you see acceptance of homosexuality as a sign of the decay of American morality. But the gayness has always been here. It was just hidden away where we rarely saw it. For better, or worse, it's in the open.
Peace and Harmony,
JT
As to whether one is born queer, or not,I don't have any more to go on then what the few gay people that I've spoken to say and the medical experts claiming that that's the way it is. My only question is why the fluck should any one else care?
As to the churches, and not just the Catholics, I also find your logic flawed. The guilty abusers are subject to judgement and punishment in the here and now. Their bishops and archbishops that covered up for them should be in jail, too. Like the thief, their crimes had victims, unlike gay marriages. The only thing more unnatural then their acts was for anybody to expect them to be asexual in the first place.
Look SJ, You believe with blind faith, and more power to you. I'm not going to change your moral feelings regarding gays. I also see the rights of American citizens to be free on this issue different then you do. I wish that I could get you to see that the moral issue and legal issue is not always consistently the same thing. I also think that you see acceptance of homosexuality as a sign of the decay of American morality. But the gayness has always been here. It was just hidden away where we rarely saw it. For better, or worse, it's in the open.
Peace and Harmony,
JT
When you find yourself in a hole.... quit digging.
-
toes in the sand
- Posts: 994
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:21 pm
Pardon my censor of the following quote but I did not want to reprint the language that I feel is inappropriate for this family forum but I feel that the nature of the post and the flippant attitude of the poster toward marriage is significant.
I am worried for my culture. If two men or two women wish to announce their everlasting union let them find another term and venue for it. Marriage is the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law. Why should I not fight the re-definition of a tradition in my culture?
Definitions of mother, father, son and daughter are already under attack. If same sex couples wish to join in a similar union that is fine with me even though homosexual acts are a sin in the eyes of my church. However I do not believe that the federal government is the entity to judge such sins. I do not allow my religion dictate my politics. It does however guide my moral compass.
The posting above is one of the reasons I do not want to allow the definition of marriage be re-written. I do not want the tradition of marriage left in the hands of someone who has the same amount of respect for the institution as Bill Maher. Marriage is a tradition in my culture that I do not want to see re-defined, diluted, disrespected, lost or cunfusing to future generations.Gromit wrote:I'm waiting for a late meeting so what the hell, I'll play! (apologies in advance for the langauge but I'm feeling punchy!) This one's for you Flip!!
Q. What is traditional marriage?
A. One that starts with %$@#^&#$ in the bedroom and 20 years later includes yelling "%$@#^&$ you" at one another as they pass in the hallway.
Q. What rights do peole who are married have that those who are not married denied?
A. Being as miserable as the rest of us heterosexual folks.
Q.What is the limit? Can 3 people of the same sex be married? Can 2 people of the same sex and one of the opposite sex be married?
A. YAY!! Does this mean I get to have another husband? Gee ... more money and more orgasms. Score!
Q. Why have marriage?
A. Good point. It's really just organized prostitution when you get right down to it -- only women make LESS money out of the deal.
Q. Who invented marriage?
A. Probably some poor bastard who was bored and wanted to %$@#^&$ with us.
*Editors Note* I honestly and truly love and adore my husband of nearly 11 years and he and I truly believe that Gay marriage should be legal so that homosexuals can be as miserable as the rest of us.... why should we have a monopoly on til death do us part?
I am worried for my culture. If two men or two women wish to announce their everlasting union let them find another term and venue for it. Marriage is the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law. Why should I not fight the re-definition of a tradition in my culture?
Definitions of mother, father, son and daughter are already under attack. If same sex couples wish to join in a similar union that is fine with me even though homosexual acts are a sin in the eyes of my church. However I do not believe that the federal government is the entity to judge such sins. I do not allow my religion dictate my politics. It does however guide my moral compass.
Last edited by toes in the sand on Tue May 26, 2009 11:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
"got a drink in my hand and my toes in the sand"
SJ SAID "i'n nature, homosexuality is rare and mostly not in monogamous relationships. If we evolved from single cell organisms, why aren't there homosexual relationships throughout the species? Have they lost they gayness? Why are only humans wired for homosexuality? Flip, Gromit Lulu, Bueller, Bueller...."
SJ, homosexual behaviour has apparently been documented in some 1500 species, and well documented in some 500-
enough--please. live and let live--why is this a threat to you? really.... WHY?
I mean this is craziness on the level of interracial marriage and witch hunting.
Why is this a problem for you--if you think god has an issue, then let god sort it out, cause the last time i checked YOU were NOT god.
My Brother in Law is in a committed relationship with a wonderful man, they are raising a lovely daughter. They are wonderful (if a bit overprotective) parents and she is a smart, well adjusted kid.
I so did not want to go here.
this crap you spout pisses me off. you are a bigot, nothing more nothing less.
basta.
SJ, homosexual behaviour has apparently been documented in some 1500 species, and well documented in some 500-
enough--please. live and let live--why is this a threat to you? really.... WHY?
I mean this is craziness on the level of interracial marriage and witch hunting.
Why is this a problem for you--if you think god has an issue, then let god sort it out, cause the last time i checked YOU were NOT god.
My Brother in Law is in a committed relationship with a wonderful man, they are raising a lovely daughter. They are wonderful (if a bit overprotective) parents and she is a smart, well adjusted kid.
I so did not want to go here.
this crap you spout pisses me off. you are a bigot, nothing more nothing less.
basta.
< leaving on the 22nd of march...but too lame to figure out the ticker thing again!>