usvi-on-line
Iowa is a surprising place
I just realized that two different things are being looked at here. The initial issue was if same sex couples should be able to marry. This is the issue that different states are looking into.
There's another issue that's been interjected. And that is whether or no homosexuality is wrong. If homosexuality was illegal (as it is in some countries) there would be no discussion about same sex marriage. But since homosexuality is not illegal, what would be the reason that same sex couples wouldn't be able to marry?
There are some relationships that are forbidden by laws--incest, polygamy, adults having sexual relationships with minors. People involved in such relationships certainly would not be able to marry because the relationships themselves are illegal.
Some people clearly believe, for various reasons, that homosexuality is simply wrong and perhaps think it should be criminalized. There may be groups lobbying to have it made illegal, I don't know. But for now, as long as homosexuality is legal, why shouldn't same sex couples be able to marry?
And as far as the matter of 3 people marrying, that's an odd distraction from the issue that the states are taking up. There doesn't seem any serious concern that allowing same sex couples to marry would open doors to a range of strange arrangements. When the laws against interracial marriage were dismantled, I wonder if some people feared that it would lead to interspecies marriages.
People can certainly post what they wish, but the issue that the states are looking into is limited to whether or not same sex couples should be able to marry. Homosexuality, for now, is legal. People are not prohibited from having same sex relationships. The question is why the people in those relationships shouldn't be able to marry.
There's another issue that's been interjected. And that is whether or no homosexuality is wrong. If homosexuality was illegal (as it is in some countries) there would be no discussion about same sex marriage. But since homosexuality is not illegal, what would be the reason that same sex couples wouldn't be able to marry?
There are some relationships that are forbidden by laws--incest, polygamy, adults having sexual relationships with minors. People involved in such relationships certainly would not be able to marry because the relationships themselves are illegal.
Some people clearly believe, for various reasons, that homosexuality is simply wrong and perhaps think it should be criminalized. There may be groups lobbying to have it made illegal, I don't know. But for now, as long as homosexuality is legal, why shouldn't same sex couples be able to marry?
And as far as the matter of 3 people marrying, that's an odd distraction from the issue that the states are taking up. There doesn't seem any serious concern that allowing same sex couples to marry would open doors to a range of strange arrangements. When the laws against interracial marriage were dismantled, I wonder if some people feared that it would lead to interspecies marriages.
People can certainly post what they wish, but the issue that the states are looking into is limited to whether or not same sex couples should be able to marry. Homosexuality, for now, is legal. People are not prohibited from having same sex relationships. The question is why the people in those relationships shouldn't be able to marry.
And... you called me ignorant. Is that one out of the Conservative playbook?
Ummm.. and SJ...I worked for the NRA for FIVE years. I can HARDLY be called a liberal.
You were the one that got nasty with the "Ignorant" comment and condescending with the "I'll pray for you" and you're so "worng on so many levels" crap.
I never said you were wrong in your beliefs, I was simply having a civil dialogue.
Play or don't play. Matters not to me but I'm not checking my sense of humor at the door. Maybe you shouldn't either.
Bored YET?
Ummm.. and SJ...I worked for the NRA for FIVE years. I can HARDLY be called a liberal.
You were the one that got nasty with the "Ignorant" comment and condescending with the "I'll pray for you" and you're so "worng on so many levels" crap.
I never said you were wrong in your beliefs, I was simply having a civil dialogue.
Play or don't play. Matters not to me but I'm not checking my sense of humor at the door. Maybe you shouldn't either.
Bored YET?
*Another fine scatterbrained production
That is so funny. To think that one who doesn't attend church is incapable of being religious or spiritual. I am not a member of an organized religion, my husband is agnostic and yet we were married by the lovliest, most devout Christian man I know, a Wesleyan minister. Our ceremony mentioned both God and other spiritual belief that we both share - YES, God can coexist with other beliefs. I was married in the Wren Chapel which was constructed in the 1690s before Williamsburg was founded, when the capital of the colony of Virginia was still located at Jamestown.
A selection of some of my favorite Jeffersonian quotes (he was after all a student at William and Mary before he went on to found the University of Virginia), I would dare say no one finds him to be ignorant.
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814
I have often pondered who is the better person, the one who does good because of the fear of God's wrath? Or the person who believes in no God but does good anyway?
It is this black and white, I know and you are ignorant perspective that is so oft putting. Keep at it. Just as I hope Dick Cheney, Ann Coulter and Rush keep talking, I wish you to do so as well. I think as the true roots of your thinking are unveiled it is so telling and reasonable people can judge for themselves.
A selection of some of my favorite Jeffersonian quotes (he was after all a student at William and Mary before he went on to found the University of Virginia), I would dare say no one finds him to be ignorant.
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814
I have often pondered who is the better person, the one who does good because of the fear of God's wrath? Or the person who believes in no God but does good anyway?
It is this black and white, I know and you are ignorant perspective that is so oft putting. Keep at it. Just as I hope Dick Cheney, Ann Coulter and Rush keep talking, I wish you to do so as well. I think as the true roots of your thinking are unveiled it is so telling and reasonable people can judge for themselves.
Oh bloody hell, why did I read past Lex's initial post and JC's and iowaguy's responses?
This is as bad as having to watch Fox News over breakfast. BARF.
All you can eat fallacies - nearly a full set - http://www.fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html
Bad arguments are bad, independent of the arguer and the subject matter.
Cheers, RickG
This is as bad as having to watch Fox News over breakfast. BARF.
All you can eat fallacies - nearly a full set - http://www.fallacyfiles.org/taxonomy.html
Bad arguments are bad, independent of the arguer and the subject matter.
Cheers, RickG
S/V Echoes - Coral Bay - St. John, VI
See, this is our fundamental difference and why we can't agree on this. I do not believe that being gay is a sin. I do not believe that because people who are gay have a different genetic make-up than straight people. There are several scientific studies on this. So, their only real sin is that they are having sex outside of marriage, and this is only because people think they want "special treatment" to get married.SJfromNJ wrote: According to the scriptures, God can have nothing to do with sin. He would not create a person to be a sinner. It is our free will to sin, or not. God loves gay people, he just wants them to repent of their sins. I know people who have repented of homosexuality and now have great marriages and children.
God did not allow the Jews to marry outside of the faith (race), but they did anyway. He punished them by exiling them as slaves to Babylon.
I'm not even going to say anything about your gay friends who repented and are now married with kids. I really hope that works out for them, because trust me that is a very awful place for a significant other to be put.
I see your point; I just think it's wrong. I don't think you're stupid (I wish you'd shown me the same courtesy) just misinformed. I guess neither of us will know who's right until we get to Heaven, so there's really no point in continuing to fight about it here on earth.
Ahh the infamous Ann Coulter...reminds me of a story...
Ann Coulter and horse walk into a bar and the bartender says: “Hey, why the long faces?”
Or, better yet, she goes into a NY or NJ bar and the bartender says: “Hey, ain’t you the _____ who said that nasty stuff about the 9/11 widows?” and promptly gets thrown out on her sanctimonious ass.
Now I got to go look where this fits into on Ricks flowchart. Is there a Snarky Diversion box?
Ann Coulter and horse walk into a bar and the bartender says: “Hey, why the long faces?”
Or, better yet, she goes into a NY or NJ bar and the bartender says: “Hey, ain’t you the _____ who said that nasty stuff about the 9/11 widows?” and promptly gets thrown out on her sanctimonious ass.
Now I got to go look where this fits into on Ricks flowchart. Is there a Snarky Diversion box?
When we come to place where the sea and the sky collide
Throw me over the edge and let my spirit glide
Throw me over the edge and let my spirit glide
I don't worship Jefferson, I was just tired of being called ignorant, so I was sharing that I am not coming from a place of ignorance. Whether you want to admit that or not. Clearly you come from a place of rather harsh judgment.SJfromNJ wrote:Hey Flip - I am not here to win a popularity contest. You worship Jefferson, good for you. I often wonder why people get married under Gods blessing, and want nothing to do with learning about who God is and what he wants. Maybe you just wanted it to look good, or like the minister had something to do with your relationship with God. There are lots of people in thse camps. If you think that where you got married or who married you make a difference in what God thinks, you are mistaken. I will be judged by the one who matters.
I saw Nancy Pelosi tripping all over herself last week. They are keeping Biden well under wraps since his GMA gaff.
If it doesn't matter why did you ask? I didn't ask you if you have ever been divorced? Or where you got married? This is because I don't CARE. It matters not to me. It makes no difference to me. I am good with my place in the universe.
One thing I can promise you is that I could care less how my marriage "appears" to others. We are 10 years into our marriage and 2 years shy of being together 20 years, so what we have going is working quite well.
Again, I can't take the sanctimonous arguments about the sanctity of marriage until someone is seriously talking about outlawing divorce.
I chose to come from a place of acceptance, love and tolerance (WOW that word again). I don't come from a place where I presume to KNOW all. I suggest we all leave that to the higher power of our choosing.