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Iowa is a surprising place
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cypressgirl
- Posts: 2178
- Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:42 pm
- Location: houston
So by your logic, if all that is needed for marriage is 2 consenting adults, what's wrong with 3 consenting adults?
You said you are not religious, so that explains a lot, but I am. I did not write the rules, my Creator did. He says homosexuality is wrong. He didn't just casually mention it, it is written out very vividly and in plain words, so there is no room for interpretation. You may think we are progressing in a positive way, by passing gay rights. Just becaue people have been beaten over the head with this issue for so long, and are caving, doesn't make it right. It's as wrong today as it was in the beginning.
As far as inter racial marriage, I have never seen or heard any mention of that in the Bible and believe that as long as the 2 races are not the same sex, go for it.
You said you are not religious, so that explains a lot, but I am. I did not write the rules, my Creator did. He says homosexuality is wrong. He didn't just casually mention it, it is written out very vividly and in plain words, so there is no room for interpretation. You may think we are progressing in a positive way, by passing gay rights. Just becaue people have been beaten over the head with this issue for so long, and are caving, doesn't make it right. It's as wrong today as it was in the beginning.
As far as inter racial marriage, I have never seen or heard any mention of that in the Bible and believe that as long as the 2 races are not the same sex, go for it.
Actually -- depending on your faith -- 3 consenting adults (or more) is just fine. Historically this practice was done for practicality -- how better to ensure that you procreate quickly?
I think you are also assuming that everyone shares the same faith or belief system as you do.
Not that folks don't believe in God or a higher power. But they may not believe in your God.
But before you say, "My God is the ONLY God" go sit down and have a conversation with a Muslim.
I also think it's dangerous to parse old and new testament because you can get into a lot of trouble that way.
It's too easy to identify with passages that meet your own belief system (some theologians would argue that this is the beauty of the stories as written) and to ignore the ones that don't.
In point of fact some of the guidance is contradictory from one part of the Bible to the next. There are inconsistencies. The new testament are stories written by followers of Jesus of Nazareth after his death- in some cases many many years after his death. So it's kind of like: "Mike said, that Joe said, that Tom said that Steve said that he was talking to Jesus and Jesus said X". Uh Huh. Sure they were probably doing their best but I'm pretty sure that they put their own spin on it but like a game of "Biblical Operator" I doubt sincerely that they got it EXACTLY right. Which makes documents like the Dead Sea Scrolls so much more fascinating.
There is LOTS of guidance in the Bible (and there are many versions that have evolved through the centuries) that I would argue you probably don't follow -- eat shrimp much? Drink milk with Beef? (I know these are OLD testament). But some faiths don't even acknowledge the New Testamnet as valid (see earlier point).
So to me if you accept the Bible as the word of God and it is to be followed as such, then you can't pick and choose what you want to follow. Because after all it IS the word of God.
Some would argue that the actual "word of God" can be found only in the 10 commandments. And they don't say anything about being Gay.
Are these not (along with the Code of Hammurabi) among the foundations of civilzation?
I don't presume to settle this argument in this conversation. Nor do I expect you to change your mind or how you feel about homosexuality and the rights (or lack thereof) of roughly 10% of the population. But I do enjoy the dialogue.
That's the funny thing about religion... what if you get to heaven and you find out that the one you picked was wrong? "Damn.. I should have been Jewish all along!!"
In my opinion religion is a way that [wo]man chooses to make sense of their universe. The Bible is simply a way of conveying that through story telling. Over the centuries, men (and yes, it was pretty much ONLY men) refined these stories.
Some of the guidance is timeless and some of it notsomuch. Not that I'm picking and choosing it's just that some of it no longer applies due to technological advances in refrigeration and food storage. Though if I find mysef living in a hot desert one day I'm gonna do a refresher course on the old testament.
I believe in free will. The idea that the GLTB community is godless and anti-religious is preposterous.
However, the fact that a significant portion of this community has clung to religion despite it's open hatred towards who they are (and how God created them) is phenomenal to me.
To me, it's like going over to a neighbors house to for a party even though you know they despise you. But yet they go because they believe in God and want to worship him/her (whatever floats your boat).
I think you are also assuming that everyone shares the same faith or belief system as you do.
Not that folks don't believe in God or a higher power. But they may not believe in your God.
But before you say, "My God is the ONLY God" go sit down and have a conversation with a Muslim.
I also think it's dangerous to parse old and new testament because you can get into a lot of trouble that way.
It's too easy to identify with passages that meet your own belief system (some theologians would argue that this is the beauty of the stories as written) and to ignore the ones that don't.
In point of fact some of the guidance is contradictory from one part of the Bible to the next. There are inconsistencies. The new testament are stories written by followers of Jesus of Nazareth after his death- in some cases many many years after his death. So it's kind of like: "Mike said, that Joe said, that Tom said that Steve said that he was talking to Jesus and Jesus said X". Uh Huh. Sure they were probably doing their best but I'm pretty sure that they put their own spin on it but like a game of "Biblical Operator" I doubt sincerely that they got it EXACTLY right. Which makes documents like the Dead Sea Scrolls so much more fascinating.
There is LOTS of guidance in the Bible (and there are many versions that have evolved through the centuries) that I would argue you probably don't follow -- eat shrimp much? Drink milk with Beef? (I know these are OLD testament). But some faiths don't even acknowledge the New Testamnet as valid (see earlier point).
So to me if you accept the Bible as the word of God and it is to be followed as such, then you can't pick and choose what you want to follow. Because after all it IS the word of God.
Some would argue that the actual "word of God" can be found only in the 10 commandments. And they don't say anything about being Gay.
Are these not (along with the Code of Hammurabi) among the foundations of civilzation?
I don't presume to settle this argument in this conversation. Nor do I expect you to change your mind or how you feel about homosexuality and the rights (or lack thereof) of roughly 10% of the population. But I do enjoy the dialogue.
That's the funny thing about religion... what if you get to heaven and you find out that the one you picked was wrong? "Damn.. I should have been Jewish all along!!"
In my opinion religion is a way that [wo]man chooses to make sense of their universe. The Bible is simply a way of conveying that through story telling. Over the centuries, men (and yes, it was pretty much ONLY men) refined these stories.
Some of the guidance is timeless and some of it notsomuch. Not that I'm picking and choosing it's just that some of it no longer applies due to technological advances in refrigeration and food storage. Though if I find mysef living in a hot desert one day I'm gonna do a refresher course on the old testament.
I believe in free will. The idea that the GLTB community is godless and anti-religious is preposterous.
However, the fact that a significant portion of this community has clung to religion despite it's open hatred towards who they are (and how God created them) is phenomenal to me.
To me, it's like going over to a neighbors house to for a party even though you know they despise you. But yet they go because they believe in God and want to worship him/her (whatever floats your boat).
*Another fine scatterbrained production
First, TWO CONSENTING ADULTS of any gender does not logically follow to three adults. Two consenting adults, period. The argument always goes there because there is no or little defense of anyone's right to dictate what two consenting adults do in a "free" democracy.cypressgirl wrote:So by your logic, if all that is needed for marriage is 2 consenting adults, what's wrong with 3 consenting adults?
You said you are not religious, so that explains a lot, but I am. I did not write the rules, my Creator did. He says homosexuality is wrong. He didn't just casually mention it, it is written out very vividly and in plain words, so there is no room for interpretation. You may think we are progressing in a positive way, by passing gay rights. Just becaue people have been beaten over the head with this issue for so long, and are caving, doesn't make it right. It's as wrong today as it was in the beginning.
As far as inter racial marriage, I have never seen or heard any mention of that in the Bible and believe that as long as the 2 races are not the same sex, go for it.
Second, I am pretty sure your God also was very clear about divorce and many other things that are not ILLEGAL or legal for some but forbidden to others.
Third, back in the day there were MANY religious arguments made against interracial marriage. In fact, the judge in VA that sentenced the Lovings (an interracial couple) argued that God separated the races for a reason. We were on different continents and therefore not intended to mix. We were messing with God's will by mixing.
People in glass houses (i.e. many of our legislators) should not cast stones. How many are on their 2nd or 3rd marriage or in the midst of an affair. Again, until someone is "defending marriage" by outlawing divorce I can't take this sanctity of marriage stuff seriously. It is a joke in a country where over 50% of marriages end in divorce.
There are many things that people do every day that I disagree with, but I don't presume to be the boss of them. It is not my place to make those determinations for them. I thing repressing someones sexually is as bad as any other form of repression. I feel sad for people who feel they have to live a lie or live on the margins of society because of who they in their core being are. I think living that lie to satisfy societial norms or to please their parents does far more damage than living the truth of who many believe God created them to be.
I have two small children and I can tell you with absolutely no doubt at all that my husband and I will support them no matter what their sexual orientation may turn out to be. Will it be much easier for them if they happen to be hetero, absolutely! Will it fit my imaginary life I have in my mind for them if they happen to be gay, no. Will I be able to if needed adjust my expectations if need be, absolutely! I love them. What matters to me is that they are with someone who is loving, supportive of their dreams, and who cherishes them as I do. I could care less the gender of that person. I don't see gayness as a sickness or a sin, but as a core element of who a person is. Gay doesn't equal flawed. Less than 10% of people are lefthanded, does that mean we are flawed, that God messed up when we were formed?
I am religious. I go to Church every Sunday, and I read the Bible. What I don't do is embrace one or two verses of the Bible taken completely out of the situational context of the times when it was written and/or the context of the entire book and embrace those verses to judge others.
Because the Lord that I worship has made it very clear that the judging is up to him. And He gave us all free will, which is a lovely thing. So, I do my thing, confident that it is right by the Lord, and I don't worry about what my neighbor is doing next door. I just pray that whatever he does will be OK in the eyes of his Lord.
I think perhaps gays and lesbians are so resistant to religion because religion is so resistant to them. Some of my dearest friends in the world are gays and lesbians, and they all started out with strong Christian foundations. They all believe deeply in God and Jesus, but they don't really want to be a part of organized religion because they feel like there is no place for them.
And frankly, I think there are plenty of organized religions who are OK with that.
Jesus loved everyone. He dined with tax collectors and hookers, even when people criticized him. God has made everyone in His own likeness (I read that in the Bible). We are all His children. People don't choose to be gay; they just are. I just don't believe that God and Jesus hate them and want them to burn in hell, but you believe whatever you want.
Church weddings are one thing. I'm Catholic. We get married in big, brick churches with statues and icons. Personally, it's offensive to me and my religion that people get married on the beach. But I don't go around and post nasty comments when people post their beach pictures. Why, because their belief system is obviously different than mine. And just because MY religion says God doesn't recognize their marriage because it's on a beach, doesn't mean that God will greet them at the gates of Heaven and send them away. It's silly to even think that.
Civil marriages are something different. That's the government saying, "Hey, it's OK to be on each other's health insurance;" "Hey it's OK to file jointly on your taxes, or buy a home or adopt a child together." And for the government to say "Hey, it's OK" to one group, they need to say it to others. Someone else pointed out that interracial marriage used to be sanctioned by the government. Until 40 years ago, my church thought you were going to Hell for marrying someone who wasn't Catholic. Times change, and I think we just have to realize that we're all God's children, even if we don't know that in our lives, and He's going to take care of every single person He puts on Earth. I've always said that God knows our plan before we're ever born, and I can't believe He'd set anyone up for failure.
But maybe that's just me.
Because the Lord that I worship has made it very clear that the judging is up to him. And He gave us all free will, which is a lovely thing. So, I do my thing, confident that it is right by the Lord, and I don't worry about what my neighbor is doing next door. I just pray that whatever he does will be OK in the eyes of his Lord.
I think perhaps gays and lesbians are so resistant to religion because religion is so resistant to them. Some of my dearest friends in the world are gays and lesbians, and they all started out with strong Christian foundations. They all believe deeply in God and Jesus, but they don't really want to be a part of organized religion because they feel like there is no place for them.
And frankly, I think there are plenty of organized religions who are OK with that.
Jesus loved everyone. He dined with tax collectors and hookers, even when people criticized him. God has made everyone in His own likeness (I read that in the Bible). We are all His children. People don't choose to be gay; they just are. I just don't believe that God and Jesus hate them and want them to burn in hell, but you believe whatever you want.
Church weddings are one thing. I'm Catholic. We get married in big, brick churches with statues and icons. Personally, it's offensive to me and my religion that people get married on the beach. But I don't go around and post nasty comments when people post their beach pictures. Why, because their belief system is obviously different than mine. And just because MY religion says God doesn't recognize their marriage because it's on a beach, doesn't mean that God will greet them at the gates of Heaven and send them away. It's silly to even think that.
Civil marriages are something different. That's the government saying, "Hey, it's OK to be on each other's health insurance;" "Hey it's OK to file jointly on your taxes, or buy a home or adopt a child together." And for the government to say "Hey, it's OK" to one group, they need to say it to others. Someone else pointed out that interracial marriage used to be sanctioned by the government. Until 40 years ago, my church thought you were going to Hell for marrying someone who wasn't Catholic. Times change, and I think we just have to realize that we're all God's children, even if we don't know that in our lives, and He's going to take care of every single person He puts on Earth. I've always said that God knows our plan before we're ever born, and I can't believe He'd set anyone up for failure.
But maybe that's just me.
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cypressgirl
- Posts: 2178
- Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 2:42 pm
- Location: houston
Yes Gromit, God gave us all free will. Free will to make all sorts of bad decisions. Free will to sin all we want. Yes, I know I'm right and you are wrong. I'll pray for you to see the the truth. Until then, I'm not going to argue with any of you about this topic anymore. We are in a culture war in this country and the left is winning because the right is too polite and afraid to be politically incorrect In the end it will all be as it's suppose to, and there's nothing you can do about it. God does have the last word.
If you don't have a problem with 3 being married, where does it stop? Or is there not a limit to what mankind can do? Should a mother and a daughter be allowed to marry? Dad and son? How about mom, dad, and the 3 kids all get married? This whole topic makes me want to vomit. I'm over and out.........
If you don't have a problem with 3 being married, where does it stop? Or is there not a limit to what mankind can do? Should a mother and a daughter be allowed to marry? Dad and son? How about mom, dad, and the 3 kids all get married? This whole topic makes me want to vomit. I'm over and out.........
I'm not married, but I'm also not divorced. God doesn't believe in divorce, so I want to make sure that if I do get married, it's going to last. I really wish more people thought that way.
I think you're confused. Really confused.
Our conversation here is about STATES recognizing marriage. That, my friend, is CIVIL marriage. Lots of people who don't believe in God get married everyday at your neighborhood courthouse. They do it to get health benefits, they do it for tax purposes, perhaps to help an illegal immigrant get a green card. Oh, and they do it because they're in love and don't want to get married in a church.
The churches can turn away whatever gays they want quoting whatever Bible verse they want, just like when the priest told my pregnant cousin she couldn't get married until she confessed her sins to God. No one's stepping on anyone's precious dogma, doctrine or hand-picked Bible verses.
But if two lesbians are married and they have a baby together, the other one will get the baby if one parent dies. And any other rights that straight people take for granted because they've never been faced with the situation.
I said everyone is free to worship their own God. All my Jewish friends agree with me. (And they still love me even though I eat cheeseburgers and keep all my food in one refrigerator. And, I don't even think they believe I'm going to Hell for it!)
I think you're confused. Really confused.
Our conversation here is about STATES recognizing marriage. That, my friend, is CIVIL marriage. Lots of people who don't believe in God get married everyday at your neighborhood courthouse. They do it to get health benefits, they do it for tax purposes, perhaps to help an illegal immigrant get a green card. Oh, and they do it because they're in love and don't want to get married in a church.
The churches can turn away whatever gays they want quoting whatever Bible verse they want, just like when the priest told my pregnant cousin she couldn't get married until she confessed her sins to God. No one's stepping on anyone's precious dogma, doctrine or hand-picked Bible verses.
But if two lesbians are married and they have a baby together, the other one will get the baby if one parent dies. And any other rights that straight people take for granted because they've never been faced with the situation.
I said everyone is free to worship their own God. All my Jewish friends agree with me. (And they still love me even though I eat cheeseburgers and keep all my food in one refrigerator. And, I don't even think they believe I'm going to Hell for it!)
Have you ever just woke up and wanted to be gay one day? I'm guessing you haven't.
Gay people don't just wake up and want to be gay one day either. They are born gay, just like you were born straight. But because there are people out there who talk about how they're going to hell and "make them want to vomit," they spend their whole lives fighting it. Most of them try really hard to be straight, only to have it fail miserably.
It's not because they're sinners. It's because everyone who knows nothing about it spouts off about how it's a sin.
But it's not my place to judge. It's not anyone's place to judge except God's. And I truly believe that if God didn't think they were OK, they wouldn't have a gene that's actually different in straight people.
God makes everyone. He's the one who gives people different genes. If he loves left-handed people, people with red hair and people with Down Syndrome (and of course he does!), then he loves gay people too.
Gay people don't just wake up and want to be gay one day either. They are born gay, just like you were born straight. But because there are people out there who talk about how they're going to hell and "make them want to vomit," they spend their whole lives fighting it. Most of them try really hard to be straight, only to have it fail miserably.
It's not because they're sinners. It's because everyone who knows nothing about it spouts off about how it's a sin.
But it's not my place to judge. It's not anyone's place to judge except God's. And I truly believe that if God didn't think they were OK, they wouldn't have a gene that's actually different in straight people.
God makes everyone. He's the one who gives people different genes. If he loves left-handed people, people with red hair and people with Down Syndrome (and of course he does!), then he loves gay people too.
