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[jmq]

Well, that proves it doesn’t it . . . Palin must be all the things you believe Westbrook Pegler to be. Maybe she was part of the Kennedy assassination. Come on, you can’t see how absurd this is?? It is a quote that describes how many people feel about their communities regardless of who originated it.

Sarah Palin was talking about small town values and she was not being literal. The phrase "small town values" means closeness or a sense of community that people feel toward their neighbors. It means supporting one another and helping when someone needs help. When someone mentions small towns generally they talk about how friendly they are and helping a stranger with directions . . . exhibiting small town values. But these values aren't exclusive to small towns and we all know that.

How are these attitudes and behaviors polarizing? How is talking about helping each other out when they’re in need a bad thing? Don’t we want more Americans to be kind to each other? How many people before Palin have talked about small town values??

What is going on here is that the left has dug and spun this quote to make it look like Palin is polarizing or quoting a really bad guy . . . whatever. Anyone will just a little common sense sees it for what it is. Smear.

So, let me get this straight: when candidates talk about general values and ideals during the campaign, they are not to be taken literally, are assumed to be inclusive and not exclusive, guilt by association should not be applied, and their words and meanings are not to be parsed and spun by the other side? Really? What a concept.

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[soxfan22]

Or, this line in her convention speech: "We grow good people in our small towns, with honesty and sincerity and dignity." – Palin in her speech at the Republican Convention, quoting the fascist right-wing columnist Westbrook Pegler, an avowed racist and anti-Semite who once expressed his hope that Robert F. Kennedy would be assassinated.

Well, that proves it doesn’t it . . . Palin must be all the things you believe Westbrook Pegler to be. Maybe she was part of the Kennedy assassination. Come on, you can’t see how absurd this is?? It is a quote that describes how many people feel about their communities regardless of who originated it.

Sarah Palin was talking about small town values and she was not being literal. The phrase "small town values" means closeness or a sense of community that people feel toward their neighbors. It means supporting one another and helping when someone needs help. When someone mentions small towns generally they talk about how friendly they are and helping a stranger with directions . . . exhibiting small town values. But these values aren't exclusive to small towns and we all know that.

How are these attitudes and behaviors polarizing? How is talking about helping each other out when they’re in need a bad thing? Don’t we want more Americans to be kind to each other? How many people before Palin have talked about small town values??

What is going on here is that the left has dug and spun this quote to make it look like Palin is polarizing or quoting a really bad guy . . . whatever. Anyone will just a little common sense sees it for what it is. Smear.

Again, I have learned that you must spell out your exact meaning for Flip. The terms nuance, metaphor, and hyperbole do not exist in her world. Which is fine, I just know that to be the case going in now.

As for the reference to Westbrook Pegler...I the small town in which I was raised, my momma taught me that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...Meaning, many folks believe just about everything Obama says is very closely linked to the teachings of Saul Alinsky, even Alinsky's son himself who in the fall wrote in the Boston Globe that Obama had "learned his lessons well".

[flip-flop]

Flip - You don't want me to bust out some of our current VP's sound bites do you? That STFU look Obama gave him the other day was priceless. It just goes to show, if Biden can be VP, anyone can. I can't wait until he steps on Hilary's toes.

I am quite aware of Joe's knack of implanting his foot firmly in his mouth. However, there is a difference between a gaffe and an absence of knowledge.

A little background on Biden's credentials: (from wiki)

Biden was also a long-time member and served as chairman of the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations who collaborated effectively with Republicans in the Senate (including Lugar and Jesse Helms).

In response to the refusal of the U.S. Congress to ratify the SALT II Treaty signed in 1979 by Soviet leader Leonid Brezhnev and President Jimmy Carter, Biden took the initiative to meet the Soviet Foreign Minister Andrey Gromyko, educated him about American concerns and interests, and secured several changes to address objections of the Foreign Relations Committee. Biden's efforts to combat hostilities in the Balkans in the 1990s brought national attention and influenced presidential policy: traveling repeatedly to the region, he made one meeting famous by calling Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic a "war criminal". He consistently argued for lifting the arms embargo, training Bosnian Muslims, investigating war crimes and administering NATO air strikes. Biden's subsequent "lift and strike" resolution was instrumental in convincing President Bill Clinton to use military force in the face of systemic human rights violations. In 1998, Congressional Quarterly named Biden one of "Twelve Who Made a Difference" for playing a lead role in several foreign policy matters, including NATO enlargement and the successful passage of bills to streamline foreign affairs agencies and punish religious persecution overseas.

I think Obama selected Biden precisely to ease the justified (imho) worries about his (Obama's) foreign policy experience. I was just disappointed that Mccain picked someone precisely to "fire up the base" and "serve as a direct counterpoint to liberal feminists." Which one appears like the more partisan move to you? He had so many moderate conservative options. If he had chosen more wisely, I think he would have beat Obama. One of the primary reasons I supported Hillary was that I thought she had the experience and would be able to beat Mccain. I was terrified that Obama would be shredded, until Mccain picked Palin. It was like a gift.

I agree with Palin that the stanglehold the McCain campaign had on her and not allowing her to be interviewed more frequently assisted the media in their portrayal of her as kind of lacking. That was the campaign's decision, not the medias. One can only assume that they thought letting her speak more often and more shall we say "unscripted" would have been even more damaging. Their call, not mine.

I just think the whole liberal elite media spun it and didn't give her a fair shake argument is a weak one. You wanna talk about not getting a fair shake talk to Hillary. You don't hear her crying about it and making negative, self-serving things about Obama now, do you? Nope. Coming from the party of personal responsibility it just seems like a cop out.

[soxfan22]

Flip, you are well within your right to say that Palin is the reason McCain lost, but the facts just don't support your opinion.

As SJ pointed out so eloquently earlier in this or another thread (in response to you once again making that claim), coming out of the Republican National Convention, McCain Palin actually had a nice lead in the polls, especially given the unpopularity of President Bush. Also, remember that Day 1 of their convention was more or less cancelled due to the hurricane.

Palin then left the convention and became our Obama. She was the one people traveled 100's of miles to see speak, she was the one drawing the huge crowds that rivled those of the chosen one. And to be honest, I really don't care what these "RINO's" (Republicans in Name Only - Sally Quinn? C'mon) had to say about her, she was not a drag on the ticket.

"It's the economy, stupid". That comment is NOT NOT NOT directed at you Flip, just a figure of speech to help illuminate the point that when the market crashed, so did the White House dreams of McCain/Palin.

I thought (and I said this at the time) that the ONLY way for McCain to have won would've been to denounce the initial bailout (TARP), and go head to head with Obama on it's merits/demerits. Once he pulled that stunt by going back to DC to make sure that things got done, he was done.

Remember, greater than 90% of Americans were against that bailout. McCain could've taken a stand there for free markets, but he did not. The term "Free-Markets" also means you are free to fail. Unfortunately, that part of the equation has been removed from the concept. That is a disgrace.

[XOXO]

OH! I didn't get the memo that we are going to share gaffes. OK, my turn!

Biden: "When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the princes of greed. He said, 'Look, here's what happened.'"

Roosevelt wasn't president when the market crashed and he certainly couldn't have gotten on television in 1929 even if he was.

Joe Biden calls upon Missouri state Sen. Chuck Graham to "stand up," despite the fact that he is in a wheelchair.

Barack Obama declared at a campaign event in Oregon, "I've now been in 57 states -- I think one left to go."

Biden: "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy."

no comment from anyone here?? no?

Stephanopoulos: "You were asked: 'Is he ready?' You said, 'I think he can be ready, but right now I don't believe he is. The presidency is not something that lends itself to on-the-job training.'"

Biden: "I think I stand by the statement."

After getting the veep nomination: STEPHANOPOULOS: "Do you still stand by the statement?"

BIDEN: "That was a year ago. He's learned a hell of a lot."

STEPHANOPOULOS: "So he's developed...uh... on the campaign trail??"

Biden on Obama: "In order to look tough, he's undermined his ability to be tough... "It's a well-intended notion he has, but it’s a very naïve way of thinking how you're going to conduct foreign policy"... "The way to deal with it is not to announce it, but to do it. The last thing you want to do is telegraph to the folks in Pakistan that we are about to violate - quote - 'their sovereignty.'"... "Having talking points on foreign policy doesn't get you there."

Biden: Assessing Obama’s Iraq plan : “My impression is [Obama] thinks that if we leave, somehow the Iraqis are going to have an epiphany” of peaceful coexistence among warring sects. “I’ve seen zero evidence of that.”

Biden's Campaign Manager on Obama: “If Iowans believe campaign funds and celebrity will fix the debacle in Iraq, put the economy on track, and provide health care and education for America’s children, they should support another candidate. But I’m confident that Iowans know what I know: our problems will require experience and leadership from Day One. Empty slogans will be no match for proven action on caucus night.”

In a Dec 2007 campaign Ad Biden says: “When this campaign is over, political slogans like ‘experience’ and ‘change’ will mean absolutely nothing. The next president has to act.”

Exactly what I am trying to say!

Here is my point: I don't find gaffes interesting or telling. I think people use them for their own "gotcha" agenda. Just as Flip was trying to do about Palin. I have plenty more gaffes if you would like a litter the forum full of nonsense. OR, we could all agree that Palin's gaffes mean just as little as Bidens. Your call.

[flip-flop]

Again, I have learned that you must spell out your exact meaning for Flip. The terms nuance, metaphor, and hyperbole do not exist in her world.

Again, my issue is not that she said such things once, or even twice, but REPEATEDLY at 100s of rallies. The age of youtube is a wonderful thing. The media isn't involved there at all, but it really made a HUGE impact in this race no? People could rewatch her speeches over and over. Rallies where people got really fired up and angry and yelled out "he's a terrorist" and "he's an arab!"

I am pretty certain that her statement was neither nuanced nor was it metaphorical. Fear mongering worked in '04, surely it would work again? But it didn't pan out that way, did it? Voters were wiser to the "swift boat" tactics and the haters were never able to get anything to stick. I have ALWAYS argued that if Mccain had not stooped, or allowed Palin to do so, the race would have been a lot tighter.

Remember when people booed mention of Mccain at Obama's rallies? Remember what he said? He said, "Don't boo. Just vote."

While we were all singing kumbaya at Obama rallies, Palin was using divisive language that preys on people's worst instincts, not their best. It seems to bother you to no end that people are inspired by Obama. What a horrible thing. I would rather believe in inspiration and the fundamental goodness of people than hateful, incindiary rhetoric. What good can there come of a making a statement about being grateful to be in a "proAmerica" part of the country. Still, can you clarify the metaphor for me? It does imply that there is a antiAmerican part of this country? No? Where is that part exactly? Gosh darnit this language stuff is so confusing. I know, and millions of American voters know, exactly what she was implying.

I don't put his loss 100% on Palin, but a large part of it. The bigger problem was the collapse of the economy, and HIS HANDLING of his response. That was a disaster. Again, his own fault. Not Obama's and surely not the fault of all of his sheep.

The media did not put words in any of their mouths - Joe Biden's included. The media loves a story and they gave them a story. Don't hate the player, hate the game. Obama just flatout played it better than Mccain and Palin and all your angst makes you sound like a sore loser.

I have continually conceeding points to Mccain and Palin. Did I love them, no? Would I have voted for Mccain if he picked someone else and stayed his Mccain 1.0 version vs. the kind of creepy version of himself in this campaign, maybe. I admit I was pissed that Hillary didn't get the nomination. I wasn't alone. McCain could have made a very smart strategic pick to capitalize on that anger. He didn't. I am a thinking, critical person. Obama got my vote in the end, because Mccain offered an extremely unappealing alternative.

You going off on your metaphorical Hilter train was flat out offensive and inappropriate (sorry I guess I have my forum police badge on again). Call it metaphor all you like, but comparing Obama to Hilter in any sense, metaphorical or otherwise is WAY UNCOOL, MAN. I called you on it. Repeatedly, yes. Because I think not standing up to hateful rhetoric is wimpy. Especially when you were very reluctant to dial it back and especially when you showed a penchant for re-using language that garnered a negative reaction here. All with a smile, I might add. Sorry, forgive me, but I don't think your intentions were the best.

I have actually learned a bit and refined my own position some based on some of the more conservative commentary here, that which has been less combative, more constructive and in the interest of continuing the discourse in a positive manner vs. just winning the argument. You like a good fight man, and I am happy to keep at it, but please don't insult me by implying that I just don't get nuance. I have seen very little nuance in anything you've put forth, it all comes across more like a brick to the head.

My initial goal (way back with the first abortion thread) was to provide perspective to the black and white, this is right that is always wrong approach. The easy, uninformed jump to the worst assumption. Later, honestly, my goal became to get you talking and keep you talking.

Over and out...

[soxfan22]

"All that angst"? Flip, you're the one who keeps denigrating Sarah Palin, who has long gone back to her post in Alaska.

I said a few days ago that she will be heard from again, and that she has much to add to the political dialogue in this country, and that it is a good thing...

You responded that you agreed with me that she will be hears from again, but "That is NOT a good thing for America".

Which is fine...again, we both gave our opinions. Your was filled with a bit more vitriol, but I'm used to that.

I like Pete, who said that choice in abortion was a deal breaker for him. I respect that he can admit that. When will you admit that your hatred for Sarah Palin is rooted in her Pro-Life position and record?

And yes Flip, it is hatred. That is one emotion that very clearly is communicated through the 'Internets'.

[soxfan22]

I'm saying this last thing and then I'm out of this discussion. It is a fasle equivalency. Just because there hasn't been another attack of the scale of 911 on our soil does not necessarliy mean we have been
"kept safe." If that is the sole criteria under which you chose to judge the Bush legacy then I beleive your view is too narrow. Our world in many ways is a much more dangerous place than it was at the begining of The Bush presidency. Our economic vunerability for one example places us in an untenable position. better start learning Mandarin!

So with that said, Im really out of this discussion. Enjoy!

Sailorgirl, I like the point you make. The state of the economy may well be the biggest current threat to our national security. China owns us and our dollar is in the tank.

Do you ever think about where all this bailout money is going to come from? I ask that as if you and I were sitting down having a conversation without an ounce of antipathy towards each other...It's something I think about all the time.

Our government is about to pass a $1 TRILLION bill that is supposed to help stimulate the economy. Where is that coming from? The answer is that we are either going to print it (further diluting our dollar), or we will borrow it (more than likely from China). How do those two possibilities help to alleviate our economic bedrock problems? Our concern should be to create jobs, stabilize the dollar, and pay off our debt. This $1 TRILLION bailout does none of that. Where is the job creation going to come from in this thing? I mean, I realize Obama has put in there about $100 million to resod the Washington Mall. Okay, that will take about a month. Where are the sustainable jobs? Where is the strengthening of the dollar? How are we going to pay down our debt to China, to ensure that my two kids and your two children don't have to learn Mandarin?

Does anybody ask these questions? Or do we have so much faith in a man who has never run anything other than a campaign, and a man who didn't pay his own taxes, that these questions just don't matter?

The media loves to talk about "nobody asked the right questions in the run-up to the war" (I hate that term because I've heard it so much in the media...run-up to the war)...Well, when this plan fails miserably (and it will), and all we have to show for it is some Kentucky Blue Grass on the Mall, will the media hold him accountable?

I suspect I know the answer. File the question as "rhetorical".

[flip-flop]

Sox - misquoting me again. I said "I do agree that she is NOT done and I also agree that this is a great thing." I really, really, really, really want her to be the new face of the republican party. Really, believe me when I say that. Because I really do.

I don't hate her. Or her position. You don't know me. But know that I have MANY friends who are at the opposite end of the spectrum from me on the choice issue and on many other issues. We are still great friends because we agree to disagree with respect. You think it is my one issue, but it is not. I just refused to lay down when hateful assumptions were spewed about that particular issue. Sorry, but I really am starting to think the Abortion issue is a much more deeply held issue for you, than me.

Again, you go back to the black and white...I must hate her because I disagree with her. It is simply not true. Hating her and thinking she was way out of her league are two very different things. Note: though I have called you out on your hateful language I've never been so presumptious to say that you hate Obama. Nope, not once.

What I abhor is people who think they know THE answer, as if there is only one, and who want to legislate their opinion in order to impose it others.

[XOXO]

Flip: You wanna talk about not getting a fair shake talk to Hillary. You don't hear her crying about it and making negative, self-serving things about Obama now, do you? Nope. Coming from the party of personal responsibility it just seems like a cop out.

Are you for real?? I think it is safe to say that the Clinton's noticed the media bias.

Des Moines Register, Iowa: Clinton’s senior advisers have grown convinced that the media deck is stacked against them, that their candidate is drawing far harsher scrutiny than Barack Obama.

Bill Clinton: “The political press has avowedly played a role in this election. I’ve never seen this before,” the former president said. “They’ve been active participants in this election. . . . But I don’t want to talk about the press. I want to talk about the people. That’s what’s wrong with this election, people trying to take this election away from the people.”

During a debate between Obama and Clinton:

Clinton: “Well,” she responded, her voice rising, “could I just point out that, in the last several debates, I seem to get the first question all the time? And I don’t mind. You know, I’ll be happy to field them, but I do find it curious. And if anybody saw ‘Saturday Night Live,’ you know, maybe we should ask Barack if he’s comfortable and needs another pillow.”

The media elected Obama, and as much as you don't want to hear this, the sheep followed.

[soxfan22]

You're right Flip. My sincere apologies for mincing your words...Here is your quote that day:

Flip - I made one post here that I truly regret and it was related to Sarah Palin. I still think she was completely unqualified for VP, as did/do many prominent republicans however I was out of line and I said so when I said she didn't have two brain cells to rub together. She may be a fine Gov of Alaska. But running Alaska is very different than running the country. I do agree that she is NOT done and I also agree that this is a great thing.

I think I probably got hung up in your reminder that you had said she didn't have to brain cells to rub together.

[XOXO]

SOX: Our government is about to pass a $1 TRILLION bill that is supposed to help stimulate the economy. Where is that coming from? The answer is that we are either going to print it (further diluting our dollar), or we will borrow it (more than likely from China). How do those two possibilities help to alleviate our economic bedrock problems?

I think we are in trouble, to be honest. I have hope but very little faith. I just don't see how the current plan is going to change anything for the better.

[flip-flop]

You're right Flip. My sincere apologies for mincing your words...Here is your quote that day:

Flip - I made one post here that I truly regret and it was related to Sarah Palin. I still think she was completely unqualified for VP, as did/do many prominent republicans however I was out of line and I said so when I said she didn't have two brain cells to rub together. She may be a fine Gov of Alaska. But running Alaska is very different than running the country. I do agree that she is NOT done and I also agree that this is a great thing.

I think I probably got hung up in your reminder that you had said she didn't have to brain cells to rub together.

Apology accepted.

[XOXO]

Flip: Again, my issue is not that she said such things once, or even twice, but REPEATEDLY at 100s of rallies.

So.

Small town values aren't a bad thing.