The Problem with Guilt by Association (warning: political)

[pjayer]

Soxfan22/Rex, I say this with all honesty and sincerity. Among all the voices here, yours is by far the one that needs to be heard. Your message is loud and clear, and I can connect the dots.

[soxfan22]

you know soxfan , don't you think it's kind of ironic that here you are harpingon the evils of the 'socialism' that an Obama administration would bring, and yet, your job and your industry --pretty much to the exclusion of ALL others in the "for profit' sector have gained the most from socialism (as it is practiced here)?

You are absolutely right! I believe you're talking about Medicare Part D? It has made a mess of my job and the healthcare industry as a whole. Med Part D is a nightmare. Physicians are inundated with mundane prior-authorizations, wven for the most "benign" remedies. All because the federal government has realized that they cannot possibly fund this animal (as they will find with any universal HC policy), and they will be forced to implement ridiculous guidelines and restrictions. All of which will be supported by the private insurance companies, who share the same goals (saving money).

This is why this issue is not as cut and dry as those who support universal hc seem to make it. There are a LOT of moving parts:

Patients
The Federal Government
State governments
Pharma/Biotech
Research
Insurance Companies
Health Care Providers (physicians, nurses, administrators, etc)

I have stated since the beginning of these threads that there are many policies of Bush that I don't like. One of those is Med Part-D.

There are too many people with their hands in the cookie jar for it to be as easy as just giving everybody coverage. There is a lot at stake for many different industries, all in business under the guise of "serving patients". I would argue that insurance providers are not in business to serve patients best interests, for the most part.

[jmq]

For those who show little or no remorse for using hateful words and peddling fear of others who are not like them, I have one word: KARMA

[California Girl]

For those who show little or no remorse for using hateful words and peddling fear of others who are not like them, I have one word: KARMA

yup!
'nuff said.

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[California Girl]

I've never heard Karma to be instant death! Wow! Scary. My understanding of Karma is that whatever vibe you put out into the Universe, the Universe will give it back to you in spades. Karma sometimes can be a really good thing. Sometimes, not so much.

[jmq]

SJ – if serious, permission hereby denied to listen to John Lennon! Wasn’t he a pinko peace-nik anyways?

[sailorgirl]

We should also socialize the legal system ahile we are at it. Why should lawyers make $400/hour to protact our rights. Legal defence and representation should be free for everyone.

I wish I charged $400 an hour, then maybe I could getb to STJ more often!!!!

[flip-flop]

thanks flip. you truly speak for all the "moderates" on this forum.

Again, I only speak for myself here. If what I have said resonates with others or helps someone more clearly understand what it is that you are really saying, I am all the happier for it. However, I would never presume to speak for anyone but myself.

Are you having a hard time parsing the words in my last posting?

Though there are many here that probably agree with you about the actual issues (the importance of military might, that abortion is a horrible evil, or that higher taxes are not the answer), I have yet to hear one willing to publicly walk in lockstep with you and your position that the rest of us are on that train to a concentration camp. You seem to out there on that one alone twisting in the wind.

If you will note, I have never once in any of my postings said anything directly derogatory toward you. No matter what I believe of you I have never called you a name or thrown out a nonsensical attack. I have only debated the logic, relevance and true meaning of your beliefs.

[soxfan22]

thanks flip. you truly speak for all the "moderates" on this forum.

Again, I only speak for myself here. If what I have said resonates with others or helps someone more clearly understand what it is that you are really saying, I am all the happier for it. However, I would never presume to speak for anyone but myself.

Are you having a hard time parsing the words in my last posting?

Though there are many here that probably agree with you about the actual issues (the importance of military might, that abortion is a horrible evil, or that higher taxes are not the answer), I have yet to hear one willing to publicly walk in lockstep with you and your position that the rest of us are on that train to a concentration camp. You seem to out there on that one alone twisting in the wind.

If you will note, I have never once in any of my postings said anything directly derogatory toward you. No matter what I believe of you I have never called you a name or thrown out a nonsensical attack. I have only debated the logic, relevance and true meaning of your beliefs.

Flip, et al...

If you would allow me to explain my comparison to Obama supporters and the holocaust. On it's face, it certainly can be construed as an irresponsible and reckless description.

However, you are taking what I said literally. Do I think you are headed for a concentration camp? C'mon flip, seriously. But do I think that in your idealistic and socialistic view of the world, that you are being misled by a man who has not been properly vetted by those that we trust to do that job? Absolutely.

If you ask an Obama supporter why they support him - do you ever get a 'policy' answer? No, it is usually platitutes and soaring rhetoric about the world respecting us again...or we need change (but nobody can ever tell us what he means by change)...Or, well, he's not Bush...Or, the actuarial tables say Mccain will not live through his term...

Yet, those same people ignore the things he is slapping us in the face with. A day or two after the ACORN controversy began, Obama in his stump speech said "You know, the acorn doesn't fall too far from the tree"... What is that? I always thought it was the 'apple'? This guy is misleading us as if we are a bunch of rubes, and then turning his back and laughing at the ease with which he is allowed to do so (thanks to the media).

You know, he's going to move everybody out of poverty, yet he has an Aunt that he refers to extensively in his book who lives illegally in a Boston slum for the last 5 years - and he has a bother who lives in a hut in Kenya on less than $1.00/month. And he says we need to be our brother's keeper?

He even commented on his aunt's situation in his book, saying something to the effect of "government puts the honus on the family members to help the least among us, well suddenly I found myself as "the family"...Again, in reference to that aunt in Boston. What did he do for her? How did he help her?

But you guys keep making excuses for all of these things - because you are so strong in your ideology, filled with so much hatred for Bush, that you cannot see the forest from the trees.

That is what I meant with my comment. BTW - whatever happened to all of those 'fainting' Obama supporters that were so conveniently seen rally after rally during the primary? They have all disappeared, no? At least the media is not showing them anymore. I guess that point was made - time for them to build on the Robin Hood story.

I am sorry if I insulted anyone - especially those personally affected by the holocaust. But I stand by my thoughts that I believe for the most part, Obama supporters are sheep, following their leader into the financial ruin of this country.

And please - don't be 'scared' for me. Contrary to what you believe, I am not a nutjob. If Obama is elected, I will have respect for him as our President, and I will fall in line in support of the office. That is a lot more than I can say for the treatment Bush has received for the past 8 years (warmonger, terrorist, war criminal, criminal, he hates black people, terrorist, dunce, stupid, ignorant, etc).

And also - some of you guys should get off your high horses...Do you want a replay of some of the mean, nast, vile comments that you have made towards Governor Palin?

Here's one for now: "Sarah Palin makes it embarrassing to me that I have ovaries".

That's classy.

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[jmq]

I hope you are joking and I think you are. I'll try to be funny. I love John Lennon. I love Bruce Springsteen. I love Bono... I love Beethoven. I love Mozart. If I were to limit myself to listening to artists I agree with politically, I fear I would be listening to only Donnie and Marie.

Mission Accomplished - that was very funny!

[flip-flop]

Flip, et al...

you are taking what I said literally.

Ha ha ha ha, Sox that is so funny from the guy posting 20 second clips of Obama taken out of context and meant to portray that the end is coming if we elect "that one".

Nice try ... Really, thanks for the laugh today.

For the record, I wasn't taking your words literally. I only called them out as inflammatory and hateful.

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[sailorgirl]

We should also socialize the legal system while we are at it. Why should lawyers make $400/hour to protact our rights. Legal defence and representation should be free for everyone.

I wish I charged $400 an hour, then maybe I could getb to STJ more often!!!!

No really, whats wrong with a socialzed legal system. The rich can afford to pay the poor get it for free now. The middle class is the only ones paying again. You know why this would never happen? Most congressmen and senators are lawyers. I pated a lawyer $400/hour for a divorce. After that
I took some courses and I now represent myself. I am 5-0 in family court vs a top notch lawer in NJ. My motions impress the judge. An d you know how bias they are towards the CP female.

I would be all for lower cost legal services dor the middle class. I agree that $400 and hour is ridiculous, but I'll never see that in my field of practice. As the 2nd wife of the NCP I feel your pain, we have waged many battles to make sure my husband gets what he is entilted to and that is a meaningful relationship with his daughters.