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[drew.803]

There was also an article saying Obama’s mentor was a communist… communism isn’t a bad thing in itself. The ideology Marx forwarded and many after him strived to live after isn’t a bad one. That everything would belong to everyone and poverty could be completely eliminated is quite a good idea. Unfortunately, human nature and the tendency of every human being to be corrupt, to want power and strength, prevents the system from working and being practically applicable to our society.

[loria]

Thank you Pia,

I know some will say that this isnt possible, but think, if Obama were white, who would you vote for?
the show 'this american life'( on NPR--the liberal media, yeah, whatever...) did a piece on this today and it was shocking--well , maybe not shocking....but still extremely disturbing.
if you like what is going on and has been going on for the past 8 years, then you SHOULD vote McCain, since that is what you will get for the next 4 years.
my taxes will go up under Obama, and I don't care. I think i have been paying too little for energy and too little of my share for years I think that government has a role in helping lift people up --THIS HAS BEEN the role of government since the Roosevelt administration.
i don't think that we are, collectively, better off or safer as a country with the GOP's economic policies and GW's 'my way or the highway' foreign policy --post 9/11 we squandered a lot of good will across the world. then we created a more dangerous world by forsaking our mission in Afganistan and engaging in an ill conceived war that was predicated on lies--building breeding grounds for terrorists (not that Hussein was a poster boy for good guys, but there are husseins the world over--and lots much worse and we aren't invading them....wonder why????)
I love this country as much as anyone. And i hope that Obama is the person that can work this crap out. whoever ends up with this mess certainly will inherit the ball buster of all jobs--our childrens children will end up repaying this debt....and to think that 8 years ago we had a budget surplus......

p.s sarah p. paying taxes is patriotic.

I hope that i haven't offended anyone. I think that the fact that we can come together and engage in intelligent discourse is one of the best things about being an american. And, though i might disagree with some of you, i would fight to the death to defend your right to express your opinion

[verjoy]

Terrorists were attacking us long before 9-11. Two weeks before I was to take my 77 yr. old mother to Europe for a tour in 1998 there was the double bombings of our Embassies in Africa. Over 200 people were killed.

In 2000 my husband and I were on a cruise, we were in Kuala Lumpur on election day. Our cruise was to stop in Bali and Sumatra Indonesia, but we were rerouted because of the threat of terrorism. It was only a short time later that a bombing there killed nearly 200, mostly Australians. We did not cause terrorism with the war in Iraq, it has been building for many years.

[Cid]

Hey Jorge,

Sorry to set you off. I wasn't singling you out or assuming anything about who you are at heart or how you run your business. I was using your situation and reaction to it as an example or a reference to a common attitude I've seen amongst small businessmen. I'm sorry if I raised your blood pressure. I do dislike generalizations so I should have been more sensitive. My apologies. I ducked out early on the last politics discussion. Perhaps I should have this time as well.

My perspective comes from time working for the Chamber of Commerce. I have to say a large portion of the small business owners did not have Jorge's outlook towards their workers. What they said privately and how they presented themselves to everyone else were two vastly different things.

Every time the discussion would evolve around minimum wage, establishing a "living wage", taxes or health care there would be an outcry from these folks like you were taking a sucker from a toddler. The conversation would eventually end in...."well I'll have to lay people off or just close the doors."

Of course you can't go overboard here. Many of these small businesses are teetering much like many homeowners are. You also can't expect these folks to be happy every time someone wants them to cough up some more. They are not immune to the same increases in health care etc...that we all suffer from.

I don't think Joe "Small Business" (or Joe Taxpayer) would mind paying what he does if he saw some value for his money. The fact is that value simply isn't there. If we can blow through money in this country in the manner we do and still have crappy, expensive health care and education, why should we throw more money at the problems without coming up with reasonable solutions.

Imagine how we could fix education with the $700 billion we're giving to the rich bankers to whom we already owe substantial mortgages. You could send a lot of kids to college with that kind of cash.

Imagine how inexpensive health care could be if we spent a trillion or two or three like we have on war.

We couldn't do that. It would be un-American and anti-capitalist. It's much more important that 1% of our population continues to be able to drive the other 99% into the ground. It's the American way!

We could rebuild a lot of non-functioning government agencies and programs if we just shaved 5% off the defense budget and set it aside for this purpose only. The savings would show an immediate return. Or, we could build a few more $300 million dollar planes that don't work and kills soldiers.....Hmmmmmmmmm.

[aroobagirl]

Pia - thanks I was contemplating sending that one myself but have been telling myself over and over don't engage. I have one question for fiscal conservatives - how can trickle down economics work if those at the top are too greedy to allow money to trickle down and grease the economy? The packages provided to CEOs in this country were just too outrageous to defend. How can anyone justify making enough in one year to support thousands of hardworking families? The CEO of Costco, Joe Sinegal, stands out as a beacon of hope, he has placed a self-imposed ceiling on his earnings with the explanation that nothing he could do could justify his making more than $350K a year. If all CEOs had his ethic perhaps trickle down economics might stand a chance.
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/business/story?id=1362779

[soxfan22]

Here is an email I just received...........something to think about

Pia

A question of perspective :
Obama/Biden vs McCain/Palin, what if things were switched
around?..... think about it.

Would the country's collective point of view be different? Could racism be the culprit?

Ponder the following:

What if the Obamas had paraded five children across the stage, including a three month old infant and an unwed, pregnant teenage daughter?

What if John McCain was a former president of the Harvard Law Review?
What if Barack Obama finished fifth from the bottom of his graduating class?

What if McCain had only married once, and Obama was a divorcee?

What if Obama was the candidate who left his first wife after a severe disfiguring car accident, when she no longer measured up to his standards?

What if Obama had met his second wife in a bar and had a long affair while he was still married?

What if Michelle Obama was the wife who not only became addicted to pain killers but also acquired them illegally through her charitable organization?

What if Cindy McCain graduated from Harvard?

What if Obama had been a member of the Keating Five?
(The Keating Five were five United States Senators accused of corruption in 1989, igniting a major political scandal as part of the larger Savings
and Loan crisis of the late 1980s and early 1990s.)

What if McCain was a charismatic, eloquent speaker?

What if Obama couldn't read from a teleprompter?

What if Obama was the one who had military experience that included discipline problems and a record of crashing seven planes?

What if Obama was the one who was known to display publicly, on many occasions, a serious anger management problem?

What if Michelle Obama's family had made their money from beer distribution?

What if the Obamas had adopted a white child?

You could easily add to this list. If these questions reflected reality, do you really believe the election numbers would be as close as they are?

This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another when there is a color difference.

Educational Background:

Barack Obama:
Columbia University - B.A. Political Science with a Specialization in International Relations.
Harvard - Juris Doctor (J.D.) Magna Cum Laude

Joseph Biden:
University of Delaware - B.A. in History and B.A. in Political Science.
Syracuse University College of Law - Juris Doctor (J.D.)

vs.

John McCain:
United States Naval Academy - Class rank: 894 of 899

Sarah Palin:
Hawaii Pacific University - 1 semester
North Idaho College - 2 semesters - general study
University of Idaho - 2 semesters - journalism
Matanuska-Susitna College - 1 semester
University of Idaho - 3 semesters - B.A. in Journalism

Education isn't everything, but this is about the two highest offices in
the land as well as our standing in the world. You make the call.

I have not posted because you all have made it clear you think I'm nuts. But this BS is completely over the line. I am sick and tired of everytime anyone dares to criticize this marxist/socialist Barack Obama, we are called racist! And Pia, I would've hope you'd have known better than to pull this shit.

I didn't vote for John Kerry, who is a big, dorky white man. As white bread as they come. Not an ounce of black in him. I did not vote for him because he is a liberal - and all liberal policies do is ensure equal misery.

I will not vote for Barack Obama because he is left of Lenin. Not because he is black. First off, the man is not black - his mother was white and his father was Kenyan. To me, that is Milano.

For a year now, anyone who tries to criticize this man is deemed racist. We're racist if we invoke the name Rev. Wright...Racist if we talk about that fruitcake Father Pfleger...Racist if we talk about Ayers...Racist if we talk about his relationship with ACORN...Racist if we talk about his following of the communist community agitator Saul Alinsky...Racist if we say he will rasise taxes...Racist if we say his middle name is "Hussein"...Racist if we say his first name is Barack...

Now go on - pass you IM's to each other about how soxfan is a crazy right-winger. You guys are sick.

[soxfan22]

And another thing...

Nobody ever calls Obama racist for saying things like:

"White folks greed runs a world in need" - really barack? only white people? how 'bout your boy raines who took in $20 million from fannie mae? you know, the guy who's now one of your economic/housing advisors?

"You know...My grandmother...she's a typical white person"

"Folks back in places like Pennsylvania that cling to their guns and religion with antipathy towards those who aren't like them"

Or Michelle Obama:

"For the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country"

Who's inciting race and pitting one group against another here?

[verjoy]

We have had close relationships with all races during our lifetime.

Since 1962 we have had friends and neighbors that we have entertained in our home and taken trips with that are African-American.

In Hawaii we lived in an all Japanese neighborhood. At our former home our next door neighbors for 10 years were Indian. Now our immediate neighbors are of Phillipino extraction.

Both my husband and I have cousins who are Latino.

In 1968 I wrote a series of letters to President Johnson and our Senator and Congressman because our friends from Nigeria were being forced to go back to Nigeria by the Nigerian government in the middle of the Biafran genocide. They were of the Ibo tribe and were being persecuted by the Hausa tribe. Look it up.

To be called racist because you're not voting for Obama is insulting to me.

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[cypressgirl]

I know I'm a red neck, being from Texas and all, you have to expect we're a bunch of gun totin', church goin', homophobes, but I didn't realize Penn. had red necks too. That crazy guy........Mertha?........he enlightened me.

[Lulu76]

To be called racist because you're not voting for Obama is insulting to me.

Did someone say that? I have read this thread several times, and I haven't seen anyone say that those not voting for Obama were racist.

I will say, however, that this election has allowed me to see a side of some friends and family members that I didn't know was there and is very unappealing to me. I'm not saying that people are not voting for Obama because they are racist; many just disagree with his ideology. He is quite liberal. However, people that I did not think had a hateful bone in their bodies have said some downright ugly things about Obama because of his race.

If people don't believe everyone should have access to affordable health care, like paying low taxes and think the war in Iraq is necessary, they should just say it and be done. They don't need to go on and bring anyone's ancestry and/or ethnic background into it.

[soxfan22]

I know I'm a red neck, being from Texas and all, you have to expect we're a bunch of gun totin', church goin', homophobes, but I didn't realize Penn. had red necks too. That crazy guy........Mertha?........he enlightened me.

Yeah cypress...well, you may recall it was the "brilliant" democratic strategist, James Carville (aka "The Ragin' Cajun) who said this about Pennsylvania:

"To me, Pennsylvania has always been Philadelphia on one side, Pittsburgh on the other, with Alabama in the middle".

[soxfan22]

If people don't believe everyone should have access to affordable health care, like paying low taxes and think the war in Iraq is necessary, they should just say it and be done. They don't need to go on and bring anyone's ancestry and/or ethnic background into it.

Yada, yada, yada says Elaine from Seinfeld.

We jusy dished out nearly $1 trillion dollars to bail out the banks who gave out bad loans to people because the government thought everyone should own a home, regardless of ability to pay!

Where is this money coming from? Where is the money going to come from to fund Medicare Part D, which is already basically insolvent?

Where is the $800 billion Barack wants to give the UN to fight global poverty coming from? And besides, don't we have enough poverty in Detroit to clean up before we let Obama ship our money to his montheland of Kenya?

Lulu, you have a view of the world that is noble, for sure. The problem is, you haven't apparently read any books on pragmatism.

[Lulu76]

Just leave me out of it. Just like everyone should leave the fact that Obama has brown skin out of it.

It's a battle no one can win, and I don't want to fight with you. So please refrain from including me in your attacks.

Jorge asked a legitimate question, and I think we owe him a favor to stick with his issue and play nicely. But perhaps that's my idealism peeking through.

[soxfan22]

I don't want to argue politics with you. It's an argument no one can win. We're never going to see eye to eye, and frankly that doesn't bother me in the slightest.

My whole point was that folks who don't support Obama have PLENTY of reasons to dislike him without getting personal.

So, instead you make it a personal attack on me. I'm not debating you, but I am asking you very kindly to leave me out of your little jabs.

Do you not get it? People don't dislike you because you're voting for McCain. They dislike you because you act like a jerk.

Well alrighty then. Happy Holloween to you to!

I complimented you on your noble view of the world (everyone eats, everyone sees the doc for "free", etc etc)...Then I say that I don't think your views are pragmatic. That is to say, they cannot possibly be implemented without the destruction of everything MOST Americans hold dear.