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[verjoy]

Thank You for your service David.

[Nic in KC]

This thread continues to educate me! I haven't read any threads for a couple of days so forgive me for bringing up the statements regarding racism a few pages back. If the statements that have been made could truly be brought up in court as racist, that is bothersome. Where I live you can hear on a daily basis men and women using boy or girl when talking to or calling to other men or women. These people are of all racial backgrounds. I have never once thought of either of those terms as being racist or derogatory. Maybe it's because of my location???

The other thing that's interesting to me is that several people feel they are going to gain so much wealth when Obama is in office. I've done the tax comparison and we might get seven hundred dollars a year under Obama. I'm pretty sure that 700.00 isn't going to make me rich! I did watch the commercial last night because I want to be informed on what he is saying and he talks a good talk, but I also don't abide by promising soooo much and than not providing. I still don't see how all these things he promises are going to come to pass and the lower the income limit gets for his tax cuts, the more I wonder just how low it will go.

[David- n Hampton, VA]

You are most welcome verjoy.....I consider myself lucky.

My personality is such that I probably would have always been a soldier.....only I was privileged to have been born in a time and place that allowed me to have served in the greatest Army this planet has ever known.....in all of recorded history. We are unchallenged as the greatest and best military to ever be assembled......and that is saying a great deal (because there have been many remarkably successful and accomplished military forces in the roughly 6000 years we have records on.)

[sailorgirl]

Sailorgirl......you misunderstand.....the issue is does America (the vast sheep filled 300M strong America) understand the things required of the sheep dogs to protect them from the wolves?

My understanding is that the answer is no.

So, when some slick well funded very photogenic well spoken front man from the more "sheep" like side of the US starts a ground swell of emotion that says Bush (a sheep dog) is horrible because he has teeth and has actually used them (see the blood on his fur!!!!!), I do want to at least try to make people understand that everything isn’t quite as clear cut as the hind-sight politics that has been played so hard here.

With respect to Americans....it isn’t a we versus they. If you mean us against the Middle East.....you are absolutely correct (in my opinion.)
Just out of curiosity......how many posters here have spent much time working with Middle Eastern cultured people? What are your thoughts?

Here are mine in a nut shell. (And I admit to a bias here.) Their culture wants to destroy ours...and if I had my way, we would never see, talk to or about, or have any dealings with them again...ever.....and when in 200 years or less, their oil reserves are gone and they revert right back to the nomadic, warrior culture (that they still are under all that money.....) We will have the safer planet because of it.

Should their culture shift to be more closely aligned to what "Western" or even "Eastern" cultures resemble.....then we can revisit the issue.

I do undersatnd your point. I may not agree with the premise. Im not so sure Bush was showing his teeth to protect us sheep as much as to protect the pockets of those who profit by the wolf/sheepdog fight. but I agree with you, nothing is black and white and trying to boil down a problem this complicated to a few jingoistic phrases serves no one's purpose.

[flip-flop]

Well it seems you gentlemen are really well acquainted with the Bush doctrine. You are doing better than Palin on that one. (In what respect, Charlie?)

Trust me, I am neither a sheep nor a peace activist.

For the rest of us (nonsheep, nonsheepdogs and nonwolves)

The Bush Doctrine is used to describe various related foreign policy principles of GWB. The phrase initially described the policy that the United States had the right to aggressively secure itself from countries that harbor or give aid to terrorist groups, which was used to justify the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan.

OK, I am fine with that part actually. I do feel we were justified in Afghanistan. Still, regardless of how many times you say otherwise, there is NO proof from any credible source that pre-9/11 Iraq was harboring or giving aid to terrorist groups.

Since the Bush doctrine has been VASTLY expanded to include additional elements, including the controversial policy of preventive war, which held that the United States should depose foreign regimes that represented a potential or perceived threat to the security of the United States, even if that threat was not immediate; a policy of encouraging democracy around the world, especially in the Middle East, as a strategy for combating the spread of terrorism; and a willingness to pursue U.S. military interests in a unilateral way.

You can say what you want but I don't see that in my best interest or this country's.

My question is if we are all for preemptive war where does it stop? Iran? North Korea? Pakistan?

America is powerful and America is great, but if the world turns on us or if even those countries out there who hate each other come together in their hate of us, the world is going to be a very ugly place where no one is safe.

But again, it is much easier to cast this in the divisive language of GWB and McCain ... good v. evil, hawk v. dove, naive sheep v. the brave protector.

GWB had a score to settle that is the plain and simple truth about why we are at war with Iraq and not many of the other ugly horrible American hating regimes.

[David- n Hampton, VA]

And That!!! Sailorgirl, is what makes this country so great! You (and Flip Flop, Soxfan, cypressgirl...and all of us) get to say these things without having to worry about being drug off into Abu Ghraib or Leavenworth, or you name it....and beaten to death for treason because we wanted to voice our disagreements.

I have traveled to three continents, fought on two, worked some of the poorest nations and the richest nations and all I can say is....Man, its nice to come home.

Further....despite all of my arguing with other posters......I wouldn’t trade a one of them. (In fact...I hope to meet almost everyone I have read here at one time or another down in STJ!) I like animated discussions over a beer more than I like this format!

[David- n Hampton, VA]

Flip Flop....saying your not a sheep (not literally of course but figuratively) doesn't make it so.

With respect to your comments about where America should or should not use pre-emptive warfare.....I disagree again.

In fact.....the idea of a world that not only believes we will attack if they harm Americans or American interests but in fact KNOWS we will pleases me to no end.

[loria]

David and others
i would like to point you to a very good and thoughtful discussion with chuck hegel, republican senator from Nebraska

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008 ... fact_bruck

[flip-flop]

Flip Flop....saying your not a sheep (not literally of course but figuratively) doesn't make it so.

With respect to your comments about where America should or should not use pre-emptive warfare.....I disagree again.

In fact.....the idea of a world that not only believes we will attack if they harm Americans or American interests but in fact KNOWS we will pleases me to no end.

David if I am a sheep there are an awful lot of conservatives that I am falling in line comfortably behind --- Hagel, Lugar, Armey, Powell. The list goes on.

The issue is not whether we have the right to use force when necessary but what your definition of necessary is. (Go ahead call me Clinton for that one, I know you will.) Again, my question goes unanswered. If we are to attack every country that is a perceived threat to our safety why are we not in Iran, in Pakistan, in North Korea, in Saudi Arabia and all of the middle east? How long do you think we would remain the military super power that we are?

What country should we invade next. Or is Iraq the only one that is a threat to our interests right now?

[David- n Hampton, VA]

Loria,

I like Senator Hagel.

He impresses me as a very smart guy, a true patriot and I think we could be good friends......(if I lived in McLean or Nebraska and I had enough money to live in his neighborhood).

But he is wrong. on how and what America should do to and for this planet. I disagree with some of what he advocates....while recognizing his reasoning. we would have to agree to disagree on those things. (But for me...that isn't unusual......most of the time I have to agree to disagree with my wife, parents, in-laws and other extended family on some issues, every time we interact. I just can't seem to get them to understand that I am correct.)

Thanks for the article though, it was informative and very well written.

[David- n Hampton, VA]

Flip Flop,

Please let me address your question from my point of view.

If I had been president during the summer of 1980.....we would already have been in a war with Iran.

If I had been the president when we told North Korea that they were required by UN resolutions to cease and desist making nuclear enrichment facilities....and they failed to do so.....we would have already bombed every facility we could identify....and dared them to take action....as a trigger point for sending our forces across from the south.

If I had been the leader of the free world....America probably would have expanded its territories.

But (and thankfully) I am not.

Instead we have been faced with the classic issue of economics. Butter versus guns.

We simply do not have the resources to take care of all the problems we have to.

My opinion is that we work to build allies. Then we work to change non-allies opinions when it involves issues of concern to Americans and American interests….then failing that…we use diplomats to relay concerns and opinions that may sway the other governments actions…..failing that we seek assistance from the UN and or other countries more favorably aligned with the countries that have failed to respond in the manner we desire…then use UN sanctions…and then….we use our military to further our nations goals and diplomatic desire.

Where exactly is Iran or North Korea or Pakistan? They are on the list in ever shifting priorities of who we will focus on next. They move up and down the scale depending on what actions they take or fail to take in relation to our desires.

Why are you asking this….Are you trying to get me to say we rule the world? I don’t think that. Are we the greatest nation…absolutely. Should other governments care about what we think….absolutely. Anything less is stupid on their part.

With respect to are there other sheep standing with you….I believe I indicated there were hundreds of millions…….and worse……..many are in positions of great power and influence….without the faintest idea about how to protect this country.

Scares the hell out of me.


Did I answer your question? If not, please try re-phrasing it, as I am obviously too stupid to understand what you wanted me to answer.

[soxfan22]

Well it seems you gentlemen are really well acquainted with the Bush doctrine. You are doing better than Palin on that one. (In what respect, Charlie?)

My question is if we are all for preemptive war where does it stop? Iran? North Korea? Pakistan?

America is powerful and America is great, but if the world turns on us or if even those countries out there who hate each other come together in their hate of us, the world is going to be a very ugly place where no one is safe.

1. Do you know who coined the term "Bush Doctrine"? It was Charles Krauthamer, a conservative columnist. Two days after the Palin interview, he came out and said that the term has changed and been addendumized so much since when he birthed the term, that even he wouldn't have know what Charlie meant. The Bush doctrine was also not an official piece of United States policy, like say, The Truman Doctrine or The Marshall Plan. Instead, it was a way for pundits to describe George Bush's world view. It was a stupid question - as was Katie Couric's gem she asked of Palin "so governor, which publications do you read on a daily basis?".

2. Preemptive war. Cooler heads will prevail, and your assertion that Bush "had a score to settle" shows your naivete on the subject. I will remind you, that it is your candidate, Barack "The Chosen One" Obama, who said that he would invade Pakistan without their permission if he had intelligence showing that OBL was there. Pakistan, for all their faults, is an ally.

3. So tell me, were there elements throughout the world who "hated" us pre 9-11? Wasn't the WTC bombed in 1992. Weren't many of our troops' dead bodies dragged through the streets of Somalia in the 1990's?

Many people think that our country was introduced to muslim extremism/terrorism when Shirhan Shirhan, a 24 year old Palestinian, killed Bobby Kennedy.

And who could forget the Iran Hostage Crisis that Jimmy Carter handled so well?

Of course, the attack on Pearl Harbor.

Seems to me the "world" has always had it out for us.

You want us to think that it is Bush's policies that have caused this hatred. I tend to think it is our greatness that causes this hatred.

It's funnny - If you listen to a Joe Biden ad from his first presidential run in 1988, he talks about "renewing America's standing in the world".

This is not new. It is standard democratic talking points.

[California Girl]

Many people think that our country was introduced to muslim extremism/terrorism when Shirhan Shirhan, a 24 year old Palestinian, killed Bobby Kennedy.

And who could forget the Iran Hostage Crisis that Jimmy Carter handled so well?

Of course, the attack on Peral Harbor.

Oh yeah! How could anyone forget those Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor? Thanks for another good laugh, Sox!

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[soxfan22]

Many people think that our country was introduced to muslim extremism/terrorism when Shirhan Shirhan, a 24 year old Palestinian, killed Bobby Kennedy.

And who could forget the Iran Hostage Crisis that Jimmy Carter handled so well?

Of course, the attack on Peral Harbor.

Oh yeah! How could anyone forget those Muslims who attacked Pearl Harbor? Thanks for another good laugh, Sox!

Um CG...I was giving a list of times we have been attacked. Not all were muslim. The point was that people have hated us throughout our history. Yes, even the Japanese. BTW...did you think that WWII was a just war? Hmmm...I don't seem to recall Germany 'attacking' us. I believe it was the Japanese, no?