usvi-on-line
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No, I don't think it is pure luck. There has been a major shift in the way people think and the way we perceive and preserve our national security. Real changes to how we handle security in the US that have nothing to do with the war in Iraq or GWB's leadership for that matter.
Pre 9/11 most Americans were blissfully unaware that we were vulnerable to attack on our own soil (well, by any other than our own homegrown terrorists, like Tim McVeigh). Our national security was seen more in terms of keeping the rest of the world, and our interests, safe.
That all changed on 9/11. I don't blame Clinton or Bush for the deaths on 9/11. I lay that blame on the extremists who perpetrated the attacks. Most were Saudi. We didn't retaliated aganinst Saudi Arabia.
Extremists come in all shapes and sizes and can be of all religions and nationalities. We have home grown extremists and foreign born ones. Some will stop at nothing, not even their own death, to bring their message to the world. To think that you can secure yourself compeltely from that kind if insanity is to fool yourself.
There not being an attack since 9/11 on American soil is less related to our Iraq invasion than the re-setting of our minds about the real security threats right here at home.
To squander the good will of the world that we had immediately following 9/11 was the fault of but one administration and their relentless and untruthful rush to war. That does not make us safer in the long run. It makes us more vulnerable, less credible in the future and well on our way to bankrupting ourselves.
Pre 9/11 most Americans were blissfully unaware that we were vulnerable to attack on our own soil (well, by any other than our own homegrown terrorists, like Tim McVeigh). Our national security was seen more in terms of keeping the rest of the world, and our interests, safe.
That all changed on 9/11. I don't blame Clinton or Bush for the deaths on 9/11. I lay that blame on the extremists who perpetrated the attacks. Most were Saudi. We didn't retaliated aganinst Saudi Arabia.
Extremists come in all shapes and sizes and can be of all religions and nationalities. We have home grown extremists and foreign born ones. Some will stop at nothing, not even their own death, to bring their message to the world. To think that you can secure yourself compeltely from that kind if insanity is to fool yourself.
There not being an attack since 9/11 on American soil is less related to our Iraq invasion than the re-setting of our minds about the real security threats right here at home.
To squander the good will of the world that we had immediately following 9/11 was the fault of but one administration and their relentless and untruthful rush to war. That does not make us safer in the long run. It makes us more vulnerable, less credible in the future and well on our way to bankrupting ourselves.
I would add that most of the intelligence comming from our Europian allies were confirming our intelligence of WMD's in Iraq. Our intelligence was budget was drastically reduced under President Clinton.
Thank you for the explanation about the words above. My problem is of course that even though I feel I have improved my English, it’s still difficult for me to understand many words here, and I cannot always find them in the dictionary. You Americans use a lot of shortenings and slang talk. So I didn’t knew what you meant with WMD and I didn’t knew for sure what you were talking about, when you mentioned “intelligence”. And it seems as if something is wrong in the last sentence. But I understand it now, just want to explain, why I perhaps seemed stupid.
So here we go - I know now that some of you still are interested in what I have to say
.
WMD
It’s funny because just now we have a big discussion about the reason for Denmark sending troops to Iraq. Some says that it was because the government want to please USA, and that the government had told that Iraq had weapon of mass destruction. So the government had told a lie. But the truth is, that it was because Saddam Hussein had ignored the resolutions from UN. That is, what is written in the departmental order, and that was, what our prime minister told. But our prime minister had to admit that there had been too much talking about WMD, so he can understand, why many people believe that WMD was the reason. I remember exactly that I was in doubt about these WMD. Some of the people, who had been in Iraq to investigate it, told that there was none. But the reason - that Saddam Hussein had ignored the resolution - was good enough for me. So I cannot say that “the intelligence” in Denmark had failed.
Life stories etc.
It’s so interesting. All this political talk has learned us a lot more about the forum member here. What they do for living, their background, their kids etc., etc.
So now I will give you a small part of my life story.
None of my parents had more than an ordinary school education, they were hard working, but they never became rich- even though they didn’t pay much in tax. They were not poor, but they couldn’t in any way have afforded to pay, what I can understand it costs to go to college- even though I was the only child, and they would have done everything for me. Hubby’s parents too had only an ordinary school education and were hard working, they were not rich either, but they had a better income than my parents and paid more in tax. Perhaps they could have afforded to pay for college, if they didn’t have to pay so much in tax, I’m not sure. But I know, they wouldn’t have done it! They would have said: we have earned our money without help from our parents, our 2 sons must do the same.We deserve to reap the benefits of our hard work ourselves.
Hubby and I both started working, when we have finished school in the age of 17. We could have continued in another school – like a college- but that was, what we want. When hubby has served his apprenticeship, he wanted to take an education as an engineer. It took 5 years, the school was free, and with the money I earned, and a few money hubby earned as a teacher for young kids one night every week, we managed to come through this years without taking loan. After being an engineer he joined the military for one year. We had our son, and both of us were still working.
When our son grew older, I used some of my spare time to take more education, and after some years hubby took a supplementary education, also in his spare time. Everything in school was free. Both of us managed to make a good career. I didn’t have any plan. I just like to learn and was interested in my job. But seeing that men had a better salary than me, even though they didn’t do their job as good as me, made me stubborn (remember I’m not young, and so it was at that time). So I have to tell that to the manager and ended up having a good income. Not as good as hubby’s but good for a girl.
Now I have stopped working, but if I try to make an estimate and see if the society’s investment in free education for us has been a good investment, I have to say yes. We have paid much more in tax, than we have cost in free school, health care, education for our son etc. etc. But we also knew people, where the society’s investment has been bad. Perhaps they don’t use their education, perhaps they are lazy, and perhaps they are being sick. But so it is with investments. Some give profit and some give loose. It’s the total result, which is the most important, and I’m pretty sure that free schools for all are a good investment.
Our kids
For Soxfan and others it’s very important that they give their children a good example, that they teach their children that you have to do an effort to have a good life. I cannot say that I disagree.
I just want to say that if your children are clever enough, they will be able to see it themselves.
That if you are lazy and don’t work, you perhaps will be able to survive, but you will perhaps not be able to go to STJ every year.
And sometimes you cannot be sure that your children do as you. Perhaps they have other values. Our son is intelligent and well educated, but he doesn’t have his parent’s energy. Except from that with the energy, he is more like my father. Very generous, could give his last penny away, and so filled with humour that all people like him. A lovely boy with lovely children, but sometimes we cannot understand his “laissez faire” attitude. He has a good job, but I don’t think, he will make a career like his father. So what I want to say is that even though you try to educate your children in your values and give them a good example, you cannot be sure that they will be like you.
We didn’t go the same ay as our parents, and our son doesn’t go exactly the same way as us.
Oh, this ended up as a long story and took a long time to create. I hope someone is still listening .
Linne
Thank you for the explanation about the words above. My problem is of course that even though I feel I have improved my English, it’s still difficult for me to understand many words here, and I cannot always find them in the dictionary. You Americans use a lot of shortenings and slang talk. So I didn’t knew what you meant with WMD and I didn’t knew for sure what you were talking about, when you mentioned “intelligence”. And it seems as if something is wrong in the last sentence. But I understand it now, just want to explain, why I perhaps seemed stupid.
So here we go - I know now that some of you still are interested in what I have to say
.WMD
It’s funny because just now we have a big discussion about the reason for Denmark sending troops to Iraq. Some says that it was because the government want to please USA, and that the government had told that Iraq had weapon of mass destruction. So the government had told a lie. But the truth is, that it was because Saddam Hussein had ignored the resolutions from UN. That is, what is written in the departmental order, and that was, what our prime minister told. But our prime minister had to admit that there had been too much talking about WMD, so he can understand, why many people believe that WMD was the reason. I remember exactly that I was in doubt about these WMD. Some of the people, who had been in Iraq to investigate it, told that there was none. But the reason - that Saddam Hussein had ignored the resolution - was good enough for me. So I cannot say that “the intelligence” in Denmark had failed.
Life stories etc.
It’s so interesting. All this political talk has learned us a lot more about the forum member here. What they do for living, their background, their kids etc., etc.
So now I will give you a small part of my life story.
None of my parents had more than an ordinary school education, they were hard working, but they never became rich- even though they didn’t pay much in tax. They were not poor, but they couldn’t in any way have afforded to pay, what I can understand it costs to go to college- even though I was the only child, and they would have done everything for me. Hubby’s parents too had only an ordinary school education and were hard working, they were not rich either, but they had a better income than my parents and paid more in tax. Perhaps they could have afforded to pay for college, if they didn’t have to pay so much in tax, I’m not sure. But I know, they wouldn’t have done it! They would have said: we have earned our money without help from our parents, our 2 sons must do the same.We deserve to reap the benefits of our hard work ourselves.
Hubby and I both started working, when we have finished school in the age of 17. We could have continued in another school – like a college- but that was, what we want. When hubby has served his apprenticeship, he wanted to take an education as an engineer. It took 5 years, the school was free, and with the money I earned, and a few money hubby earned as a teacher for young kids one night every week, we managed to come through this years without taking loan. After being an engineer he joined the military for one year. We had our son, and both of us were still working.
When our son grew older, I used some of my spare time to take more education, and after some years hubby took a supplementary education, also in his spare time. Everything in school was free. Both of us managed to make a good career. I didn’t have any plan. I just like to learn and was interested in my job. But seeing that men had a better salary than me, even though they didn’t do their job as good as me, made me stubborn (remember I’m not young, and so it was at that time). So I have to tell that to the manager and ended up having a good income. Not as good as hubby’s but good for a girl.
Now I have stopped working, but if I try to make an estimate and see if the society’s investment in free education for us has been a good investment, I have to say yes. We have paid much more in tax, than we have cost in free school, health care, education for our son etc. etc. But we also knew people, where the society’s investment has been bad. Perhaps they don’t use their education, perhaps they are lazy, and perhaps they are being sick. But so it is with investments. Some give profit and some give loose. It’s the total result, which is the most important, and I’m pretty sure that free schools for all are a good investment.
Our kids
For Soxfan and others it’s very important that they give their children a good example, that they teach their children that you have to do an effort to have a good life. I cannot say that I disagree.
I just want to say that if your children are clever enough, they will be able to see it themselves.
That if you are lazy and don’t work, you perhaps will be able to survive, but you will perhaps not be able to go to STJ every year.
And sometimes you cannot be sure that your children do as you. Perhaps they have other values. Our son is intelligent and well educated, but he doesn’t have his parent’s energy. Except from that with the energy, he is more like my father. Very generous, could give his last penny away, and so filled with humour that all people like him. A lovely boy with lovely children, but sometimes we cannot understand his “laissez faire” attitude. He has a good job, but I don’t think, he will make a career like his father. So what I want to say is that even though you try to educate your children in your values and give them a good example, you cannot be sure that they will be like you.
We didn’t go the same ay as our parents, and our son doesn’t go exactly the same way as us.
Oh, this ended up as a long story and took a long time to create. I hope someone is still listening
.Linne
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David- n Hampton, VA
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:30 am
Flip Flop,
Please feel free to talk about anyone you want to from my perspective.....that is your right and I am all for you having it. the fact is I think your wrong, but that is my "entitled" opinion also.
Let me tell you as a brand new US Army Ranger back when there was only one battalion of them in the world and I was as proud as I could be for an 18 year old kid....on Memorial Day 1975, I was marching in a parade down the waterfront district of Savannah Ga as part of the unit, when “anti-war protestors” jumped into our ranks and literally spit on us....Their actions that year ushered in Carter as our president.
They were wrong in how they acted and spoke (IMHO) and so are you now....again....in my opinion.
Over the course of three + decades defending this nation as a service man and as one who trains service men....I have discovered there are sheep, wolfs and sheep dogs.
Sheep all clump together and are generally happy. They go about their business doing sheep things…..until either a sheep dog comes by doing his job protecting them. Then they huddle together frightened and say bad things about the sheep dog how he is too aggressive, and has too many sharp teeth, and how he generally just isn’t a sheep....they scatter and reform over and over as the sheep dog tries to move them to safer positions and give the dog a hard time about.....
But let a wolf come strolling up and the sheep dog will quickly position himself to stop the wolf while every one of the sheep attempt to get lined up exactly in back of the sheep dog....their new "bestest" friend.
Bush was a sheep dog for eight years.
Which one would you classify yourself as?
Please feel free to talk about anyone you want to from my perspective.....that is your right and I am all for you having it. the fact is I think your wrong, but that is my "entitled" opinion also.
Let me tell you as a brand new US Army Ranger back when there was only one battalion of them in the world and I was as proud as I could be for an 18 year old kid....on Memorial Day 1975, I was marching in a parade down the waterfront district of Savannah Ga as part of the unit, when “anti-war protestors” jumped into our ranks and literally spit on us....Their actions that year ushered in Carter as our president.
They were wrong in how they acted and spoke (IMHO) and so are you now....again....in my opinion.
Over the course of three + decades defending this nation as a service man and as one who trains service men....I have discovered there are sheep, wolfs and sheep dogs.
Sheep all clump together and are generally happy. They go about their business doing sheep things…..until either a sheep dog comes by doing his job protecting them. Then they huddle together frightened and say bad things about the sheep dog how he is too aggressive, and has too many sharp teeth, and how he generally just isn’t a sheep....they scatter and reform over and over as the sheep dog tries to move them to safer positions and give the dog a hard time about.....
But let a wolf come strolling up and the sheep dog will quickly position himself to stop the wolf while every one of the sheep attempt to get lined up exactly in back of the sheep dog....their new "bestest" friend.
Bush was a sheep dog for eight years.
Which one would you classify yourself as?
So, we haven't been hit again due to the supervigilance of the People? Hmmm. Other than the shoe bomber, who was the last terrorist that you know of who was wrestled to the gound with a bomb in his hand (or, in his sneaker).
It couldn't have anything to do with the Patriot Act? You know, that "controversial" Act that helped to uncover a plot to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge?
Here's a snippet from a 2004 DOJ report on the Patriot Act:
"Since the USA PATRIOT Act was enacted, the Department of Justice – ever cognizant of civil liberties – has moved swiftly and vigorously to put its new tools into practice. As of May 5, 2004, the Department has charged 310 defendants with criminal offenses as a result of terrorism investigations since the attacks of September 11, 2001, and 179 of those defendants have already been convicted."
The entire report can be found here:
http://www.usdoj.gov/olp/pdf/patriot_re ... ld0704.pdf
It couldn't have anything to do with the Patriot Act? You know, that "controversial" Act that helped to uncover a plot to blow up the Brooklyn Bridge?
Here's a snippet from a 2004 DOJ report on the Patriot Act:
"Since the USA PATRIOT Act was enacted, the Department of Justice – ever cognizant of civil liberties – has moved swiftly and vigorously to put its new tools into practice. As of May 5, 2004, the Department has charged 310 defendants with criminal offenses as a result of terrorism investigations since the attacks of September 11, 2001, and 179 of those defendants have already been convicted."
The entire report can be found here:
http://www.usdoj.gov/olp/pdf/patriot_re ... ld0704.pdf
July 2003 - Honeymoon at The Westin
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
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sailorgirl
- Posts: 1644
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:03 pm
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David- n Hampton, VA
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:30 am
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sailorgirl
- Posts: 1644
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:03 pm
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David- n Hampton, VA
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:30 am
Obama was all about an "immediate withdrawal starting on day 1 regardless of what the facts on the ground are"...He had to say that during the primaries in order to win over his kook base - the move on and daily kos loons.SJfromNJ wrote:I do think even Obama have change has changed his position on his exit stategy for Iraq, and other issues such as campaign funding, but I digress.
Now, he's tried to move to a more moderat position here in the general.
Still though, he's incapable of admitting that the surge has worked.
July 2003 - Honeymoon at The Westin
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
July 2004 - Glenmar, Gifft Hill
July 2005 - Arco Iris, Fish Bay
December 2007 - Dreamcatcher, GCB
July 2008 - Ellison Villa, VGE
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sailorgirl
- Posts: 1644
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:03 pm
Diversity is great, but It seemed more like an "us" and "them" thing which is divisive, and not diverse.David- n Hampton, VA wrote:Sailorgirl....Please don't think I was trying to irritate you.....I love "sheep"......heck, I am married to one and have two for kids.....but I like it when we at least recognize the differences.
Last edited by sailorgirl on Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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David- n Hampton, VA
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:30 am
Soxfan ....Continuing my nasty habit for getting and staying slightly off topic further.....I hope that if Obama (or for that matter McCain) gets elected.....the first thing he does is order the military out of the Middle East. Not just Iraq...but Saudi, Egypt, Afghanistan, Pakistan.....all of them.
It will not happen of course....too much and many oil issues. But I would love to see it.
It will not happen of course....too much and many oil issues. But I would love to see it.
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David- n Hampton, VA
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:30 am
Sailorgirl......you misunderstand.....the issue is does America (the vast sheep filled 300M strong America) understand the things required of the sheep dogs to protect them from the wolves?
My understanding is that the answer is no.
So, when some slick well funded very photogenic well spoken front man from the more "sheep" like side of the US starts a ground swell of emotion that says Bush (a sheep dog) is horrible because he has teeth and has actually used them (see the blood on his fur!!!!!), I do want to at least try to make people understand that everything isn’t quite as clear cut as the hind-sight politics that has been played so hard here.
With respect to Americans....it isn’t a we versus they. If you mean us against the Middle East.....you are absolutely correct (in my opinion.)
Just out of curiosity......how many posters here have spent much time working with Middle Eastern cultured people? What are your thoughts?
Here are mine in a nut shell. (And I admit to a bias here.) Their culture wants to destroy ours...and if I had my way, we would never see, talk to or about, or have any dealings with them again...ever.....and when in 200 years or less, their oil reserves are gone and they revert right back to the nomadic, warrior culture (that they still are under all that money.....) We will have the safer planet because of it.
Should their culture shift to be more closely aligned to what "Western" or even "Eastern" cultures resemble.....then we can revisit the issue.
My understanding is that the answer is no.
So, when some slick well funded very photogenic well spoken front man from the more "sheep" like side of the US starts a ground swell of emotion that says Bush (a sheep dog) is horrible because he has teeth and has actually used them (see the blood on his fur!!!!!), I do want to at least try to make people understand that everything isn’t quite as clear cut as the hind-sight politics that has been played so hard here.
With respect to Americans....it isn’t a we versus they. If you mean us against the Middle East.....you are absolutely correct (in my opinion.)
Just out of curiosity......how many posters here have spent much time working with Middle Eastern cultured people? What are your thoughts?
Here are mine in a nut shell. (And I admit to a bias here.) Their culture wants to destroy ours...and if I had my way, we would never see, talk to or about, or have any dealings with them again...ever.....and when in 200 years or less, their oil reserves are gone and they revert right back to the nomadic, warrior culture (that they still are under all that money.....) We will have the safer planet because of it.
Should their culture shift to be more closely aligned to what "Western" or even "Eastern" cultures resemble.....then we can revisit the issue.