Okay...just gotta ask

[JT]

I was only 13 years old when I read Animal Farm and Brave New World. Both had lasting effects as to my interpretations of how the government meddles into some of the most innocuous aspects of our lives.

I agree with you on Animal Farm. Great read! I haven't read Brave New World, though now I will check it out.

Also, I enjoyed 1984 by Orwell. I'm sure you read that, JT?

Yes, Sox, I've read 1984. When I read 1984, in 1966, the idea of cameras watching you was pretty far fetched. Now it's just accepted.

[California Girl]

I read Brave New World, but it was so long ago, I've forgotten almost all of it. I need to read it again.

[sherban]

Sherban - you are assuming the government could grow and sell (tax) cheaper than the Mexicans. You would still need to have security chasing bad guys trying to deliver other illegal drugs. You are not suggesting we legalize cocaine, meth, and heroine are you?

I don't think I have the answer, I feel there is no silver bullet, rather there are trade offs.

There is opportunity to funnel the money from hard core criminals to governmant...pot or otherwise. Isn't that what perscription drugs are today...in some ways...a large percentage are mis-used and it is controlled by the FDA...I'm a capitalist I guess...I would like to see some of that money help build our roads or schools rather than this:

[Cid]

Maybe you don't believe all legislation is good, and that may be true, but anti-smoking laws are some of the best laws ever enacted, IMO. Personally, I'd love to see all smoking outlawed. And I don't even want to start on chewing tobacco! Gross gross, gross! That's more filthy than cigarettes...spitting in any form is offensive and unsanitary!

It's not my belief that not all legislation is good, is a a provable, documented fact.

You know what offends me? Other dudes who wear too much cologne. It gives me a headache, and I run into it in nearly every bar/happy hour situation. I think we need a law.

You know what else also offends me? When you go to a club in a major city (take Vegas for example)...If you do not have three beautiful women on your arm, you ain't gettin' in. I think we need a law, because this is clearly discrimination, and it could cause me mental distress. After all, it's not my fault that I was born a 6'1", 200 lb, average looking white guy.

How about the helmet law? If I choose to be careless with my melon on a bike, then that is my right to choose, no? Why do I need a legislator (who likely doesn't pay his own taxes) telling me how to protect the coconut? Am I endangering others?

I just happen to believe that we can't legislate all risk and discomfort out of life. Prior to the smoking ban in restaurants, there were plenty of places to go that did not allow smoking in their establishment. This law did not save us from the "eventuality" that we all get Lung Cancer...It took choice, liberty, and free will away.

No thanks.

Sox for once, I'm with you on at least one point you've made:

"It's not my belief that not all legislation is good, is a a provable, documented fact."

That is very true and is exactly the problem with the marijuana laws. The laws were NEVER good or at all based on any real facts! Hence the bad legislation. I'm all for less government involvement in my life at any level.

I've also been a cigarette smoker for 30 years. More off and on recently. You would think that I would be against the "social engineering by taxation" ploy used to combat smoking. You can call it what you want, but the numbers don't lie. Cigarette smoking and the number of new smokers is on the decline. That's a sacrifice that we as a generation have to make to get rid of a serious national health problem. While all the other things you mentioned are certainly annoying, but they don't constitute any real health risk to anyone else. The guy with no helmet is an idiot, but hey that's his choice. His not wearing a helmet isn't really causing the rest of our insurance rates to go up. Nor are we burdened with the cost of incarcerating and or rehabilitating him repeatedly. We simply have to mop up his squashed melon. Last I checked being shit on by some steroid freak at a nightclub wasn't a national epidemic. It also doesn't come anywhere near the seriousness of addiction.

"Prior to the smoking ban in restaurants, there were plenty of places to go that did not allow smoking in their establishment. This law did not save us from the "eventuality" that we all get Lung Cancer...It took choice, liberty, and free will away.

No thanks."

I think it was someone famous who once said, "Your freedom should never come at the expense of someone else" or at least something to that effect. Why should someone who chooses not to smoke assume the health risks of someone who does, simply because they are exercising their perceived freedom to smoke in a public place? I'm a devout smoker and I get this concept. Sox, you like I, like a great ummmm... "discussion", but that point is borderline stupid.

As far as the issue of taxation I'm all for it, but there are some legitimate issues there. I'm not sure that anyone expects the government to be a marijuana supplier, but they could certainly regulate it. People end to make issues out of things that aren't issues. For instance, why would anyone care whether the THC level in weed were regulated? You wouldn't want to walk into a store and not know if the beer you were buying was .05 percent alcohol or 50% alcohol. It would be good to have some idea of how stoned you were going to be when you smoked. Sometimes a little stoned is preferable to a lot stoned. Much like a beer or two after work is different from closing down the bar on a Friday night.

I'm not really up on economics but I have a thought about the legalization/taxation issue. Right now there are shitloads of cash flowing on both sides of the issue and it makes it harder to get any common sense reform. Here's the rub. There is a marijuana black market in this country through which billions of dollars exchange hands between legitimate and illegitimate enterprises. Everyone thinks that all that money goes back to drug lords in Mexico or wherever (more pot is now smuggled from Canada). While that is true to an extent it also flows through every sector of our economy. On the other end of the spectrum you have law enforcement who opposes legalization because at the state and local levels they receive billions in Federal aide to wage the "War on Marijuana". They don't want legalization because they will lose their cash cow.

Here in Vermont they do aerial surveillance with a helicopter looking for marijuana patches. There was a report that they were spending an astronomical amount of money per hour on this operation (I think it totaled several thousand dollars per hour) when it first started, but they had only found small patches of plants. They didn't find any large grow operations on public lands like they do in California and Oregon. They busted a bunch a people having between 2 and 30 plants. Mostly old hippies minding their own business. Do you think they gave up? Nope some 8 to 10 years later, they're still at it and still not amounting to shit. If they don't spend the Federal dollars they don't get anymore. All this money flowing through this problem makes one wonder if the government has any real interest in changing things. Look at all the jobs it creates! If it were legalized and taxed I'm not sure if it would be healthy for the economy or not. It would cause a large shift in the way cash flows through our economy.

As far as the question of growing your own pot and whether the powers that be would ever allow it. I think that the answer to that question is obvious. As far as I know, there is no law against growing your own tobacco. Yet, how many people do you know that grow their own tobacco and roll their own cigarettes? I don't know any. Of course I live in Vermont. It wouldn't grow here. In most places you can't have your own still. Some people still do, but they are few and far between and most aren't selling moonshine. It's for personal consumption or hobby. I don't see them flying around in helicopters looking for them either.

One last thing I wondered was what have people's experiences with weed on St John been like? On our trip we ran into a local guy at the Quiet Mon He was from Chicago and was shitfaced. According to him, he had just lost his job that day at a local eatery. He then repeated this story to us ad nauseum every ten minutes for the entire time we were with him. I bought him a few sympathy beers and he eventually smoked us up. He said he could hook us up, but it never happened. We ended up giving him a ride home. The next morning I got out of the shower just in time to see my wife talking to the landscapers. One of them came back later that day and hooked us up. We insisted he stay for dinner and drinks. We learned more about the island that evening than I think we otherwise would have. He was originally from Dominica and had been on St John for a long time. We talked long into the nigh about our cultural differences and similarities. It was really an awesome surprise and couldn't have worked out better. The next day we got baked and soaked in the opportunity to have Cinnamon Bay pretty much to ourselves.....ahhhhhh heaven!

[hawksnestbay]

The Mexican Industrial Marijuana Complex has already established itself in south west Florida.

In the last 6 months +/- there have been 45+ "grow houses" busted in Collier County {Naples}. Average number of plants has been 50, plus 25-50 lbs of processed pot.

The same thing happening in Cape Coral and Leheigh.

Value of product, equipment and cash between $150,000 to $500,000 per bust. Not Mom and Pop casual use.
The last bust I read about, the suspect was named Juan Valdez.

The war on drugs could be viewed as successful if you look at these arrests by themselves, or as failure because these houses are the tip of the iceberg and there is so much product already across the border that it is pointless to continue fighting.

If theses growers turn legitimate, pay taxes, go "Green" and incorporate Solar and Wind Power into the business model, The bad guys will just move on to different contraband.

Wipe it out or tax the sh*** out of it, what say you? Could be the next forum poll?

How about Kush Porn, post your favorite Buds, or pot brownies. Yum.

Wooah, I am high.

[Cid]

The Mexican Industrial Marijuana Complex has already established itself in south west Florida.

In the last 6 months +/- there have been 45+ "grow houses" busted in Collier County {Naples}. Average number of plants has been 50, plus 25-50 lbs of processed pot.

The same thing happening in Cape Coral and Leheigh.

Value of product, equipment and cash between $150,000 to $500,000 per bust. Not Mom and Pop casual use.
The last bust I read about, the suspect was named Juan Valdez.

The war on drugs could be viewed as successful if you look at these arrests by themselves, or as failure because these houses are the tip of the iceberg and there is so much product already across the border that it is pointless to continue fighting.

If theses growers turn legitimate, pay taxes, go "Green" and incorporate Solar and Wind Power into the business model, The bad guys will just move on to different contraband.

Wipe it out or tax the sh*** out of it, what say you? Could be the next forum poll?

How about Kush Porn, post your favorite Buds, or pot brownies. Yum.

Wooah, I am high.

That was a funny post and highlights the fact that the problems are different in different parts of the country. I get a little nervous about the "well, we're already losing" argument. While I agree, I wouldn't want anyone saying the same thing about coke or heroin. Of course the detractors of legalization want to tell you they are one and the same. The proverbial "slippery slope" argument does have some merits but common sense needs to prevail....

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[soxfan22]

Why should someone who chooses not to smoke assume the health risks of someone who does, simply because they are exercising their perceived freedom to smoke in a public place? I'm a devout smoker and I get this concept. Sox, you like I, like a great ummmm... "discussion", but that point is borderline stupid.

Cid...Nice post. And best of luck on kicking that smoking habit. I have never been addicted to anything (well, except for St. John, and Dunkin Donuts Iced Coffee - extra skim, 1 sugar)), so I do not know yet what that battle is like.

I will say though, on your above point, that restaurants are NOT public places. They are private entities, as you know. Therefore, it is really not the place of any government to establish smoking bans in private establishments. If smoking cigarettes was already against the law, well then that would be different.

So no, I don't think the point is stupid. What is borderline stupid (IMO) is thinking that only government can control the masses from themselves, and from each other.

Again, you cannot legislate all risk out of life. And even if you could, how mundane life would be!

I like personal choice.

[Cid]

I will say though, on your above point, that restaurants are NOT public places. They are private entities, as you know. Therefore, it is really not the place of any government to establish smoking bans in private establishments. If smoking cigarettes was already against the law, well then that would be different.

So no, I don't think the point is stupid. What is borderline stupid (IMO) is thinking that only government can control the masses from themselves, and from each other.

Again, you cannot legislate all risk out of life. And even if you could, how mundane life would be!

I like personal choice.

Sox, I too am a fan of personal choice. I also hate the government interfering in choices that are personal and/or local in nature. I will stand corrected regarding the issue of whether a restaurant is a public/private place. It is and should be the decision of the business owner whether or not they allow smoking. It's their private business. If you don't like it, don't go there. It's that simple. I'm also not for the stupid argument about employees that work in smoking workplaces being "trapped in a toxic environment". You made a decision to work there in the first place. If you have second thoughts, find another job. As I had stated earlier, I've spent a lot of time in bars and I never recall an employee complaining about anything other than cigar smoke. I think I probably heard more complaints about patrons personal hygiene. Of course there was the occasional discussion about contributing to Sox' "mental distress" when he came to the door, but not much about being in a smoking workplace.

Heheheheeeee.....

[soxfan22]

Cid - I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, published today:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10451518-38.html

[Cid]

I just have a minute. I did read the article, but I'm a little on the fence on this subject. I've been readying a post for my new political blog (shameless plug) on a couple of similar issues that are at the forefront this week. I'll be sure to check back and let you know my full opinion about it. There are similar issues with logging websites and ips visited as well as law enforcement wanting instant access.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10448 ... =rtcol;pop

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10446 ... ontentBody

I read Declan McCullagh fairly regularly.

[PA Girl]

This is certainly an interesting thread!

In the mid- to late-80s I attended a very small, very rural, very sheltered high school. I didn't know anyone that smoked pot. Never saw it except on tv.

The school had a program where the admin pounded into our heads that MJ was the first step on the path to h@ll. One wiff is all it would take, next thing you know you are living in a cardboard box down by the river. We were forced to put on little plays about the dangers of MJ for the younger kids. We used to fight over who got to play the part of the stoner.

Then I went to college. A small, private, US News and World Reports type of place where everyone is suppose to be too smart to do anything dumb. Boy were my eyes openned! Immediately I saw "normal" people, my peers, honors students, etc. smoking pot and I was like "wait a minute, shouldn't you be living in a cardboard box down by the river, not on your way to honors chem?" It rocked my world, blew my mind. I had been lied to all those years!

Looking back on it, I am amazed how successfully the HS school system brain washed all of us.

[soxfan22]

One wiff is all it would take, next thing you know you are living in a cardboard box down by the river. We were forced to put on little plays about the dangers of MJ for the younger kids. We used to fight over who got to play the part of the stoner.

PAGirl...Did you write this famous SNL skit? Fits in well with this discussion!

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[PA Girl]

Ha! No but the little skits we put on were not unlike the SNL one. So incredibly corny! Our had more God thrown in for good measure. Whether is was legal or not at that point, school prayer was very much alive and well at my HS.

My town had a guy "down by the river" and whenever the teachers felt a need to really drive the point home is was "do you want to end up like Bechetel, living in your car at the shale pit?!?!?"

Looking back on it, how awful it was of them to use poor Bechetel as what we could aspire to if we smoked. No doubt he (Bechetel) was related to at least a few of the kids in the school.

My dad, always one to question the school's policies, assured me Bechetel's problems had nothing to do with drugs and everything to do with Vietnam.

[Pete (Mr. Marcia)]

Why should someone who chooses not to smoke assume the health risks of someone who does, simply because they are exercising their perceived freedom to smoke in a public place? I'm a devout smoker and I get this concept. Sox, you like I, like a great ummmm... "discussion", but that point is borderline stupid.

Cid...Nice post. And best of luck on kicking that smoking habit. I have never been addicted to anything (well, except for St. John, and Dunkin Donuts Iced Coffee - extra skim, 1 sugar)), so I do not know yet what that battle is like.

I will say though, on your above point, that restaurants are NOT public places. They are private entities, as you know. Therefore, it is really not the place of any government to establish smoking bans in private establishments. If smoking cigarettes was already against the law, well then that would be different.

So no, I don't think the point is stupid. What is borderline stupid (IMO) is thinking that only government can control the masses from themselves, and from each other.

Again, you cannot legislate all risk out of life. And even if you could, how mundane life would be!

I like personal choice.

OSHA regulates public and private places of business...including restaurants and bars. Under the general duty clause of OSHA, employers must maintain a safe working environment. For example, factories (even though privately owned) must have proper ventilation of any hazardous fumes.

Many argue that the smoking bans are enforceable as a means of protecting the health of the workers in restaurants and bars who are exposed to second hand smoke. They also assert that failure to do so could expose the owners to liability under OSHA's general duty clause.

I smoke. I hate the bans. But, I do sort of get the point. If you focus on the health of the workers in these establishments, it makes sense.