Informal poll... Obama or McCain?

[soxfan22]

Again, I am not weighing in on whether the war is right or wrong, just the fact that if you are anti-abortion, to be consistent you should be anti-war.

That logic is flawed, to say the least.

That is like saying, if you are an environmentalist/conservationist, you should never burn wood in the fireplace as a means of heating your home. If that were the standard, we would all be living up in the trees with those whacko's out in Berkley.

You can't compare killing in war to abortion. As NJ guy said, war sucks. But if not for war, we'd all be speaking German, and bowing to the Furor.

Oh wait, those kids singing in that Youtube video today...They were singing to the Furor, weren't they. Looked like a bunch of zombies.

[soxfan22]

Soxfan,

Okay, so you admit that I can have an abortion if I get raped or might die carrying the child to term. I'll take religion off the table here.

Logically, is the fetus any less of a person in either of those circumstances?

In the situation in which carrying the fetus to term would cause the death of the mother, I suppose that one could argue that the abortion would be justified under the theory self defense. Our law does recognize that when faced with eminitent death, one can defend his or herself.

Now, in the case rape, eminent death to the mother no longer applies. However, you would allow an abortion in that situation. How do you explain this contradiction in your position?

Again, these instance are RARE. You guys are hiding behind these to cover for the fact that most abortions occur as a result of unplanned pregnancy.

You can talk in circles all you want - but aborting a baby in that instance is JUST PLAIN WRONG. I don't need someone to tell me it's wrong, my values just say that it's wrong. If you don't think that aborting in such a circumstance is wrong, then you have to square that with yourself - or, maybe you don't. In the meantime, I'm in the middle of a 1-0 ballgame here (Sox), and I'm tired of talking about abortion. Good night.

And for good measure - Barack Obama is the biggest fraud in the history of US politics. And, he supports infanticide...You probably think that's okey-dokey too, don't ya? Afterall, choice is choice.

My Grandfather once told me... "Just because you have the right to do something...That doesn't make it the right thing to do".

sleep tight.

[Pete (Mr. Marcia)]

Soxfan...Marcia wasn't hiding behind anything. She just exposed the inherent contradiction in what you call reasoning.

Your argument should have been that a fetus is no less of person just because it was conceived by rape. When you didn't make that argument, you exposed the fact that you are willing to make value judgments regarding the taking of what you call life. In other words, you just fell down a slippery slope.

Seriously, if I were your corner man I would tell you to stay down.

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[nothintolose]

I love St. John because it's the only place I have EVER seen so many vivid colors altogether....

[flip-flop]

That is like saying, if you are an environmentalist/conservationist, you should never burn wood in the fireplace as a means of heating your home.

Ok now I am really lost. I'll take the introduction of the wood argument to indicate that there is not a rational argument for being prolife and prowar.

Many woods are quick growing and thus considered a renewable resource. Depending on your region and the level of air pollution, I don't see how burning wood would be inconsistent with being proconservation.

Most politically charged emotional issues are intensely personal and thus should not be subject to hypothetical debates. They are not the clear cut black and white issues they are presented to be, but instead 1000 shades of grey.

This is why I firmly believe in the ... until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes you are in no position to judge or more importantly, legislate your opinion.

[soxfan22]

Last thing directed towards Pete, or Mr. Marsha, or Mrs. Marsha...whomever I'm talking to...

I had always been against all forms of abortion. Until, my wife began talking to me about rape and incest. I have changed my opinions on those RARE CASES over the last year or two.

The problem I have there (and it is my own internal issue) is that, how does a woman look at that child with a loving heart when the child wasn't conceived out of love?

I struggle with that. On the other hand - it is not the baby's fault. So yes, I do struggle.

But now that you've helped me out - screw my wife and her talks about rape and incest...Roll back Roe v. Wade...And pass the guns and ammunition baby!!!

Thanks for helping me through that.

[Lex]

Well first, it's interesting that there have been 1857 views, 110 posts but only 67 votes. I never thought for a minute that it would last as a simple poll. This is where it was bound to head.

A thread like this can have quite an impact on a forum. This forum, for the most, likes to think of itself as "family" and prides itself in not being like those other forums. It's somewhat easy to do that when staying with safe subjects like beaches, restaurants and villas. But a thread like this exposes significant differences and touches raw nerves. It's fairly easy to just agree to disagree about some things. But other things are too deeply rooted in our values or beliefs to allow us to tolerate the opposite position. And suddenly a forum isn't what it likes to think of itself as being.

And sometimes it's a little startling to discover that someone who we feel we "know" actually holds a position that is very offensive to our own beliefs. In a thread like this one, things can be learned about someone that really changes our perception of that person. They'll never seem the same and we can never go back to the impression we once had. Someone that we previously thought might be fun to have a drink with suddenly seems like someone we'd much rather avoid.

Other topics that have the potential to shake a forum to its foundation: crime, capital punishment, gun control, same sex marriage.

I'm just watching and getting a littler clearer picture of who's really who.

[Lulu76]

I have always found it fascinating that so many people claim to be pro-life, yet support the death penalty. Bush executed more people than any other governor in the history of the United States, yet he was touted as more pro-life than Kerry. I've just never understood how that works. But maybe innocent people wrongly convicted of capital crimes are not as worthy to live as little babies who aren't born yet. Life is life...

I don't like Barack Obama. Not one bit. But I keep reading posts about him being in the Senate for 173 days. Math isn't my strong suit, but he was sworn in Jan. 1, 2005. A year has 365 days...maybe I'm using my "fuzzy math" again?

I don't know if Obama has what it takes to be president, but he does have quite a bit of experience in public service. He's only been in the Senate 3 years, but he was in the state assembly for several years and is an accomplished civil rights attorney. And, I have tons of very successful friends who started their political careers as community organizers. In fact, my former boss, who is now governor of Ohio, was an ordained minister and college professor when he was elected to the U.S. Congress. It takes all kinds, even beauty queens who served on the PTA before somehow becoming the governor of some state with three electoral votes.

I don't like either candidate. I'm not telling anyone whom to vote for, however I think there's just too much nastiness in politics these days. Seriously, it makes me feel dirty when I watch the news anymore.

[soxfan22]

I don't like Barack Obama. Not one bit. But I keep reading posts about him being in the Senate for 173 days. Math isn't my strong suit, but he was sworn in Jan. 1, 2005. A year has 365 days...maybe I'm using my "fuzzy math" again?

Sorry Lulu, that was my quote. The reference to 173 days is the number of days he spent as a full-time senator prior to beginning his then full-time run for president.

And I'm sure you have many nice friends who organized...But they're not running for president on that experience. Maybe someday they will...But for now, they've moved on to executive positions, where decisions need to be made. Where one has to be on Record...Where one has to stand for something...You know, like you can't be out at Berkley talking about "Bitter people clinging to their guns and religion...", and then three weeks later go back to central PA and ask those bitter clingers for their votes.

And this statement pertains to John McCain too...There is a reason we have not elected a Senator president since JFK. They just don't do much. And when your senatorial experience amounts to 173 days, well, that's just not much.

And BTW...Barack Obama has never been elected governor of a state with even 1 electoral vote. I don't see the point you're raising.

[Lulu76]

I think it's interesting to watch an election when I support neither candidate. I've never done this before in all my 14 years of voting. It definitely brings a new dynamic to it when no one blows your skirt up.

Much like I think it's ironic that "pro-life" people voted for Old Sparky two times for president, I also find it amusing that on one side, we've got: Community organizer/state senator/U.S. senator for a few years and U.S. Senator for 28 years (Obama/Biden) vs. U.S. Senator for 22 years and beauty queen/mayor of small town/governor for 1 1/2 years. Really, isn't it a wash? And before you say it's not fair to compare Obama and Palin, I'd just like to point out that there's a very good chance that either VP candidate is going to have to finish out the president's term here.

Actually, in November 2006 I actually blogged about how neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama had the experience to be president but both were already campaigning. And, in an interesting twist of irony, I voted for McCain in 2000...

[soxfan22]

I think it's interesting to watch an election when I support neither candidate. I've never done this before in all my 14 years of voting. It definitely brings a new dynamic to it when no one blows your skirt up.

Much like I think it's ironic that "pro-life" people voted for Old Sparky two times for president, I also find it amusing that on one side, we've got: Community organizer/state senator/U.S. senator for a few years and U.S. Senator for 28 years (Obama/Biden) vs. U.S. Senator for 22 years and beauty queen/mayor of small town/governor for 1 1/2 years. Really, isn't it a wash? And before you say it's not fair to compare Obama and Palin, I'd just like to point out that there's a very good chance that either VP candidate is going to have to finish out the president's term here.

Actually, in November 2006 I actually blogged about how neither Hillary Clinton nor Barack Obama had the experience to be president but both were already campaigning. And, in an interesting twist of irony, I voted for McCain in 2000...

Well, I don't vote based on "this guy might die". Had we done that in the 80's, we woould've had Walter Mondale instead of Ronald Reagan.

And no, I don't think they're the same. The guy with the least experience out of the 4 of them is at the top of the Dem ticket.

I'm also curious as to why you think Biden would have to finish Obama's term?

[Lulu76]

Not that we knew at the time, but I get very frightened when I think about the fact that our president during the Cold War had dimentia. Of course, as I said in the other thread, Kennedy was hardly healthy. Sickness is a pretty bipartisan issue.

Maybe its because I live in the South. I still see lots of hatred here. If Obama somehow manages to get elected, I think there are lots of very ugly people in this country who will be very upset by that. I just wouldn't be surprised if someone tried to hurt him.

[Teddy Salad]

Some of the late Pat Paulsen's quotes when he ran for President:

"If elected, I will win."

"I've upped my standards. Now, up yours."

"All the problems we face in the United States today can be traced to an unenlightened immigration policy on the part of the American Indian."

"I don't want to say too much about illegal immigration. I'm afraid my views will be reported on the Cinco O'Clock News"

"Why should we tell kidnappers, murderers, and embezzlers their rights? If they don't know their rights, they shouldn't be in the business."

"Sex doesn't have to be taught. It's something most of us are born with."

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself...and of course the boogieman."

"I am neither left wing nor right wing. I am middle-of-the-bird."

"If either the right wing or the left wing gained control of the country, it would probably fly around in circles."

"Marijuana should be licensed and kept out of the hands of teenagers. It's too good for them."

When asked if he believed in the Right to bear arms: "No, I believe in the right to arm bears."

On his political affiliation: "I belong to the Straight Talking American Government Party, or STAG Party for short."

[DaveS007]

Sorry Soxfan, Flip just kicked your ass.

By the way, I hope to god you have a daughter. I hope she is healthy. I hope you love her dearly. And, I hope she never has to make the decision that we are discussing.

I'm out.

Jorge...that tickling his chin comment was freakin' awesome.

Thanks but I prefer women. But hey Jorge, to each his own, tell the wife yet?