Informal poll... Obama or McCain?

[Kathyzhere]

Okay, let's try this...

No one reply and see if he argues with himself



Wow! I am repulsed when I witness another
fellow American "shoving their political views
down others throats".

Agree to disagree and be thankful that
we all have our OWN opinions and values
and that's what makes each one of us unique.

Now, how's the weather in CT???

Or even better...when's your next visit
to Gorgeous STJ?

[DELETED]

DELETED

[soxfan22]

I am 100% ok keeping my hands off your 2nd amendment rights if you will keep yours off my 1st amendment ones.

What the heck does the First Amendment have to do with your right to have an abortion? I do not look at abortion as a religious issue. It is right vs. wrong. Kill a defenseless baby (who has no choice over that decision), or carry to term and raise that child to the best of your abilities.

The answer is simple to me.

But to stress...I could really care if Roe v. Wade is overturned or not. I think that the weight having an abortion must place on one's soul would be punishment enough as life moves on for that person. It is a long life, and what seems like a good decision today might make you feel horrible in 25 years. Who knows?

[California Girl]

IMHO I don't think men should have any say in it at all. They don't have to conceive. They don't get a say.

[soxfan22]

[quote="flip-flop]
My question is one of true curiosity. I am truly curious if the rights of the born are as important as the rights of the unborn? And if not, why not? I want to know how that cognitive dissonance is relieved if it exists. In what cases is the loss of innocent life ok?[/quote]

Is war ever necessary? There is a big difference between war and abortion. I think it is terrible that innocent lives are lost in war. But what is the alternative? Sometimes, you have to defend yourself and/or your interests. When do you ever HAVE TO HAVE an abortion?

[soxfan22]

IMHO I don't think men should have any say in it at all. They don't have to conceive. They don't get a say.

Well, that's democracy.

[Pete (Mr. Marcia)]

Flip-flop is dead on...the biggest problem we face as a nation is that we no longer separate church and state. You can trace the moral decline of the republican party to when they started taking money from the religious right in the name of morality. Ask any old school republican, they'll agree.

Soxfan...I like your argument about the 12 year olds. But, the question that was posed was whether the Constitution covers a fetus. It is clear that it does not. That was the simple point I was trying to make. Besides, I don't think any among us would hold the position that post-birth abortion is okay. Although, given that we have four teenagers, I am considering the option.

SJfromNJ...I have no clue what you are trying to say. I think you would be a hoot to party with. But, I don't really want to discuss Con Law with you anymore.

Here's my deal on this abortion issue...those of you with moral/religious objections...don't get one. That's your choice. You have that choice. Choice. On the other hand, don't you dare tell any other person, in the name of your morality/god that they have no choice. And, don't you dare spout off about the evils of big government, but then applaud government's intrusion into what ultimately is a decision between a woman, her doctor and her faith.

You all deserve Sarah Palin.

[Marcia (Mrs. Pete)]

Soxfan:

Okay, let me get this straight. If I were to get brutally raped and become pregnant from this crime, you are telling me that I have to carry this child to term because it is God's will? The Lord wants me to have this child born out of Evil?

What if I were to be blessed with a pregnancy with my husband and in the 8th month, learned that I would die if I were to carry the child to term? Am I to sacrifice my life for the unborn child? How are we to know God's will in that situation?

Explain all of this to me.

[soxfan22]

Okay, let's try this...

No one reply and see if he argues with himself

Wow! I am repulsed when I witness another
fellow American "shoving their political views
down others throats".

Now, how's the weather in CT???

Or even better...when's your next visit
to Gorgeous STJ?

That's cute.

I guess this is a release for me, as I've had to watch the mainstream media shove their political views down my throat for 6 months now.

The weather in CT couldn't be nicer this time of year. 68-70 during the day, 50 at night. New baby on the way Monday...Life is good!!!

Next trip to STJ - July 09

[flip-flop]

I am 100% ok keeping my hands off your 2nd amendment rights if you will keep yours off my 1st amendment ones.

What the heck does the First Amendment have to do with your right to have an abortion? I do not look at abortion as a religious issue. It is right vs. wrong. Kill a defenseless baby (who has no choice over that decision), or carry to term and raise that child to the best of your abilities.

The answer is simple to me.

But to stress...I could really care if Roe v. Wade is overturned or not. I think that the weight having an abortion must place on one's soul would be punishment enough as life moves on for that person. It is a long life, and what seems like a good decision today might make you feel horrible in 25 years. Who knows?

Choose whichever you would like ... my 1st amendment right to a separation of church and state or my 14th amendment right to privacy (as decided in Roe v. Wade) ... but either you support the constitution or you don't. If you feel entitled to your right to bear arms how can you possibly take my rights, as guaranteed by the constitution, from me? There could potentially be a moral or religious argument. The argument that there is a greater authority than our founding fathers and our government. God perhaps.

Our founding fathers were surely religious men, but even they in their seemingly infinite wisdom saw the quagmire that we'd be drawn into when choosing one religion over another or entangling civic decisions with religious beliefs.

You may personally state that you do not care about the religious argument, but if true, you are in the minority of those who are opposed to abortion. And really, this is not a religious issue for you? Your statement "the weight having an abortion must place on one's soul would be punishment enough as life moves on for that person" draws that into question.

Again I ask, when is it acceptable to take an innocent life? I was lucky, I didn't have to make that choice, but I promise you had I, my soul and my conscience would be clear. I walked that mile in my very own shoes, and I would never presume to judge someone else, especially if I had not personally been confronted with that reality. Not the concept of it, but the reality.

[soxfan22]

Soxfan:

Okay, let me get this straight. If I were to get brutally raped and become pregnant from this crime, you are telling me that I have to carry this child to term because it is God's will? The Lord wants me to have this child born out of Evil?

What if I were to be blessed with a pregnancy with my husband and in the 8th month, learned that I would die if I were to carry the child to term? Am I to sacrifice my life for the unborn child? How are we to know God's will in that situation?

Explain all of this to me.

Wait, wait, wait!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are some instances where I think the option should be on the table. You mention two of those.

But lets face it...99% of abortions are born (no pun intended) out of the old...Oh shoot, the jimmy slipped off. You are giving me the extreme, I'm talking about abortion as a means of BC.

I am NOT a hard-core religous person...My father-in-law is a serious born again, take every Word for absolute, and I love him to death...But we have serious arguements about homosexuality being a sin...I happen to not think it is a choice - I think you are born that way.

No matter how long I look at another man, I could NEVER become aroused. How would you explain that if it is a "choice".

So please, you are stereotyping me as something I am not...Aren't you supposed to be the people of inclusion? The people of political-correctness? The don't judge a book by it's cover people?

[Kathyzhere]

Okay, let's try this...

No one reply and see if he argues with himself

Wow! I am repulsed when I witness another
fellow American "shoving their political views
down others throats".

Now, how's the weather in CT???

Or even better...when's your next visit
to Gorgeous STJ?

That's cute.

I guess this is a release for me, as I've had to watch the mainstream media shove their political views down my throat for 6 months now.

The weather in CT couldn't be nicer this time of year. 68-70 during the day, 50 at night. New baby on the way Monday...Life is good!!!

Next trip to STJ - July 09

I LOVE New England especially this time of year! Boy do I long for the Autumn colors again.
Congratulations on your new baby and may your family be healthy & happy.
Yes, life is great and freedom of choice is as well.

Kathy

[Pete (Mr. Marcia)]

Sorry Soxfan, Flip just kicked your ass.

By the way, I hope to god you have a daughter. I hope she is healthy. I hope you love her dearly. And, I hope she never has to make the decision that we are discussing.

I'm out.

Jorge...that tickling his chin comment was freakin' awesome.

[flip-flop]

[quote="soxfan22]
Sometimes, you have to defend yourself and/or your interests. When do you ever HAVE TO HAVE an abortion?[/quote]

1. "you have to defend yourself" ... It is ok to take life if it is in your own defense. Ok, I totally agree! Like say in the case where a woman is going to die if she doesn't abort the child she is carrying. If you don't think this can be the case then you are simply not informed and should sit down and speak with an ob/gyn.

When I had a procedure that crossed my uterus with a needle longer than my forearm I introduced the very real possibility of an infection to my uterus and/or my baby. If that had happened, treatment options are very limited and when they fail necessitate an abortion. Unless of course I didn't mind potentially dying or becoming infertile.

2. "and/or your interests?" And here is the fatal flaw.

Women are not allowed to choose to end their pregnancy because you think it is a morally bankrupt thing to do, however we can kill thousands of innocent people because it is in our "interest".

What interest would that be? Financial? Religious?

Again, I am not weighing in on whether the war is right or wrong, just the fact that if you are anti-abortion, to be consistent you should be anti-war.

[Marcia (Mrs. Pete)]

Soxfan,

Okay, so you admit that I can have an abortion if I get raped or might die carrying the child to term. I'll take religion off the table here.

Logically, is the fetus any less of a person in either of those circumstances?

In the situation in which carrying the fetus to term would cause the death of the mother, I suppose that one could argue that the abortion would be justified under the theory self defense. Our law does recognize that when faced with eminitent death, one can defend his or herself.

Now, in the case rape, eminent death to the mother no longer applies. However, you would allow an abortion in that situation. How do you explain this contradiction in your position?