USVI-On-Line

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soxfan22 wrote:Working in biotech, you'd think I'd be lining my family up for the shot. Not a chance.

Soxfan: that tells me a lot. That helps me with the decision. I always appreciate your opinion.

Gina

Yes, this post was meant to provoke... to provoke thinking of what preparedness might be useful if a whole family is sick at once. Yeah, it is kind of like the warnings before a hurricane or blizzard… it may come your way, are you prepared?

I agree that frequent hand washing and gels, and good healthy habits of rest, diet and exercise are excellent protectors from disease. I practice them all as best as I can every day; however, one direct sneeze in my face by a febrile flu patient could change everything. I, too, am a strong believer in vitamins and supplements to power up immunity, especially in today's stressful environment. I dislike RX meds and I do look at alternatives, but there are many times where medical science is the only answer.

My age will put me last in line for the vaccine, so I have some time to consider the options. I am certainly not suggesting to any reader of this post that they should or should not be vaccinated; that decision should be weighed with information from trusted, factual sources, such as a personal physician. Information from the CDC on the flu vaccine: http://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/index.htm and on thimerosal: http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/ABOUT/QA/thimerosal.htm may be helpful to you, GinaXOXO.

There were mistakes made in 1976 in regard to the "swine flu". Four soldiers were sickened and a fifth died from the flu. Many more persons were indeed harmed by the vaccine than sickened by the flu. These facts do not mean that history will be repeated, and please do not confuse “government” with “medicine”. Remember too, that this is a world wide pandemic.
In regard to the 2009 H1N1, the CDC estimates that more than 1 million in the US became ill between mid April and June 2009, and as of September 3, 2009 at least 593 have died. Although the term "swine flu" is loosely used, the virus causing the 2009 flu is not exactly the same as the 1976 one, and the vaccines are absolutely not the same as those used in 1976.

So… be informed, and think about being prepared…

As far as the Guillian Barre issue-it definitely is an issue to think about. I would like to see some data. It is really hard to tease all of this out because some of the anti-vaccine organizations are "way out there". So I would like to find a good source of info-really just straight data from clinical trials of this vaccine-not anecodatal stuff from an old vaccine or rumor mill stuff.

Even the autism mercury link is unproven- despite many people's best efforts to prove it. And we have autism in our family, so I am not saying that lightly.
Personally, my theory is not that a vaccine causes autism, but that possibly the huge amount of vaccines given at once to these babies overwhelms the immune system and causes autoimmune issues. That is just my theory though! I had my children's vaccine schedules altered to give fewer vaccines at once. I know the doctor thought I was nuts but I didn't care- I just took them in more times.

The other thing to consider is your risk status. An older adult you are probably better off without the vaccine as I believe there will be some prior immunity.

For the younger ones, especially with risk factors, it is a different story. I have an asthmatic child and I am almost certianly getting her vaccinated unless her doctor advises not to.

Regardless, not a bad idea to prepare-not for doom but for your own convenience and to prevent a personal "hell" if everyone in your family gets it at once.

I just read an interesting article about the prior problems with the swine flu vaccine (Fort Dix outbreak) 1976.

That was a large scale effort to vaccinate and there were patients (still a very small percentage) that had adverse reactions and some died.

The difference though is that the actual flu outbreak they were vaccinating against never happened. So there were very few or no flu deaths or even flu illnesses beyond the Fort Dix outbreak(I don't know all the details here.) They had essentially vaccinated a bunch of people for nothing.

This time there is a documented, widespread outbreak and there have been deaths from this flu. So even if there are side effects and rare adverse events, hopefully the deaths/illness prevented this time from would be much greater than adverse events.

It really is a totally different situation. I still want to learn more but this article made me feel much better as far as a risk/benefit thing. The problem back then is there was no benefit to vaccinating since the flu never ended up going around.

djmom,

I rarely can say that I agree 100% with someone on anything... but I believe that I do agree with everything you said in the two above posts.

Finding factual, documented medical information and results is difficult for the average person; many opinions circulate on numerous websites for a variety of reasons.

I am looking for clinical trial info on the vaccine... one of the best short articles on the progress of the vaccine's development is from wedmd.com, which I view as a reasonable, non-professional source - at least one from which I can actually research the information further.



From webmd.com:

H1N1 Swine Flu Vaccine Delayed
45 Million Doses Will Be Ready by Tentative Oct. 15 Start Date
By Daniel J. DeNoon
WebMD Health News
Reviewed by Louise Chang, MD

Aug. 20, 2009 - By November, the U.S. will have only half the doses of H1N1 swine flu vaccine originally predicted, officials from the Department of Health and Human Services now say.

By Oct. 15, the U.S. now expects to have 45 million doses of the new vaccine on hand. Every week after that, another 20 million doses should roll in until the nation has all 195 million doses it's contracted for from five vaccine makers.

This means that at the end of October, there should be 85 million doses -- just over half the 160 million doses predicted by that date.

There was always an asterisk next to the prediction of 160 million swine flu doses by November. That's because vaccine production is a multi-step process in which a lot can go wrong.

Officials originally felt smug when it turned out that the original H1N1 swine flu vaccine seed strains didn't grow well -- that was included in their prediction.

But there have been new setbacks:

* Four of the five manufacturers providing the vaccine to the U.S. took longer than expected to produce the vaccine's key ingredient.
* One of the five manufacturers is still finishing up production of seasonal flu vaccine, which must be completed before switching to H1N1 swine flu vaccine production.
* It's taken longer than expected to develop potency tests for H1N1 swine flu vaccine.
* One of the manufacturers -- Australia's CSL, under contract to provide 19% of the U.S. supply -- won't be sending vaccine to the U.S. until it has fulfilled demand in Australia, where flu season is in full swing.

There's good news from MedImmune, which makes the live attenuated flu vaccine called FluMist. Production is ahead of schedule on the H1N1 version of this vaccine, which is administered by nasal inhaler. The snag here is that there aren't enough inhalers for all the new doses. The FDA must give the nod to giving the vaccine in the nose-drop form tested in early clinical trials.

By the end of the year, the U.S. will have all 195 million H1N1 swine flu doses it originally ordered. Whether that's enough, or too much, depends on demand.

Right now, the U.S. is bracing for a resurgence of the pandemic. The new flu strikes young people most often, and schools and universities across the nation are opening. All flu bugs like cool dry air -- and fall weather is on the way.

If, as expected, there's a new wave of H1N1 swine flu -- and if it doesn't peak before the vaccine becomes widely available -- demand for the vaccine will be high (as it now is in Australia). But interest may wane if the next wave of the flu pandemic peaks before most people can get the vaccine.

It seems likely that people will need two doses, given three weeks apart, for protection. That means even those at the front of the vaccine-priority line won't be fully protected until late November, four to six weeks after their first shot.

Ongoing clinical trials will soon answer the question of whether one or two doses is needed, and whether the vaccine appears as safe a the seasonal flu vaccines on which it's based.

Meanwhile, states are making plans for widespread vaccination against both seasonal and pandemic flu.


http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/ ... ne-delayed


US clinical trials information - not results - here:
http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/news/QA/vteuH1N1qa.htm

US pediatric clinical trials information - not results - here:
http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/news/QA/qaH1N1pedvax.htm

I was very interested to see the mention of Guillain-Barre syndrom because 2 of my friends have had it. Thank goodness they were both very healthy and fit prior to falling ill and each has made a full recovery. Some people never completely recover from the associated paralysis.

The second person believes he contracted it after receiving a vaccine (don't know what kind). There was no definitive proof, but he fell ill shortly after gettting a vaccine and continued to worsen until he couldn't even feed himself - that's how devastating G-B is. (And his recovery took months.) When I discussed it with a neighbor, he told me about 2 other people he knows who were diagnosed with G-B after getting vaccines. Again, there is no definitive proof that they developed G-B because of the vaccines, but the fact that each developed it immediately after getting a vaccine really gives me pause.

I think I will skip the vaccines and focus on preventing the spread of germs.

lprof wrote: These facts do not mean that history will be repeated, and please do not confuse “government” with “medicine”.

I feel like this comment was directed at me. Please, I am not so ideologically driven that I would put the health of my family in jeopardy because I think it is the big bad government trying to force meds on us. I don't think that.

However, at this point, it is our choice. Isn't that great that we have a choice of whether to subject our families to a vaccine that was rushed to development (6 months), with little safety data? It is GREAT that we currrently have that choice. Enjoy it, we may not have it for long.

Studies have shown the H1N1 flu to be no more lethal than seasonal flu, especially here in the United States. I believe the mortality rate for seasonal flu is around .12%, while that of this swine version is somewhere around .56%. A bit higher, but this is a tough one to measure. The symptoms here have been mostly mild, so common sense tells you that there's no way to capture and record all of the patients who have had swine flu.

I was watching dateline (I think) last week, and they were doing a story on the swine flu at Kansas University. They interviewed two girls (roommates) who had both contracted H1N1 after getting to school. The interviewer was allowed into the room even though the students had been quaranteened (physicians had said only they need to wear masks, not the interviewer)...The woman doing the interview asked them when they were allowed to leave their room, and the girls replied that the direction was that they could leave when their temp was at 98.6 for 24 hours without meds (tylenol, motrin, whatever)...

The interviewer then asked, "well how high did your fever go?"...One girl said her fever went as high as 100, and the other said 101...Not exactly "call the ambulance" high...Not saying we should wait that long, but sometimes the panic is worse than the disease.

And sometimes, the treatment is worse than the disease (no matter who is advocating it).

Talk with your doctors.

I had a long reply all typed out but it magically disappeared. Hmm....

I am getting vaccinated as soon as it becomes available, and I will be getting the regular flu vaccine as well.

soxfan22 wrote:

lprof wrote: These facts do not mean that history will be repeated, and please do not confuse “government” with “medicine”.

I feel like this comment was directed at me. Please, I am not so ideologically driven that I would put the health of my family in jeopardy because I think it is the big bad government trying to force meds on us. I don't think that.


---No, not necessarily you...


However, at this point, it is our choice. Isn't that great that we have a choice of whether to subject our families to a vaccine that was rushed to development (6 months), with little safety data? It is GREAT that we currrently have that choice. Enjoy it, we may not have it for long.


---Yes, it is a choice... I can see both sides of the question; I like to look at all the facts available in making my personal decision. My initial point was to consider being prepared for the possibility of contracting the flu.


Studies have shown the H1N1 flu to be no more lethal than seasonal flu, especially here in the United States. I believe the mortality rate for seasonal flu is around .12%, while that of this swine version is somewhere around .56%. A bit higher, but this is a tough one to measure. The symptoms here have been mostly mild, so common sense tells you that there's no way to capture and record all of the patients who have had swine flu.


I was watching dateline (I think) last week, and they were doing a story on the swine flu at Kansas University. They interviewed two girls (roommates) who had both contracted H1N1 after getting to school. The interviewer was allowed into the room even though the students had been quaranteened (physicians had said only they need to wear masks, not the interviewer)...The woman doing the interview asked them when they were allowed to leave their room, and the girls replied that the direction was that they could leave when their temp was at 98.6 for 24 hours without meds (tylenol, motrin, whatever)...

The interviewer then asked, "well how high did your fever go?"...One girl said her fever went as high as 100, and the other said 101...Not exactly "call the ambulance" high...Not saying we should wait that long, but sometimes the panic is worse than the disease.


---I wish no panic based on my comments; look to a trusted, factual source.


And sometimes, the treatment is worse than the disease (no matter who is advocating it).


---This may, possibly, be true at times - once again, it is best to make an informed choice.


Talk with your doctors.

Yes, talk with your doctors... I agree 100%!

chicagoans wrote:I was very interested to see the mention of Guillain-Barre syndrom because 2 of my friends have had it. Thank goodness they were both very healthy and fit prior to falling ill and each has made a full recovery. Some people never completely recover from the associated paralysis.

The second person believes he contracted it after receiving a vaccine (don't know what kind). There was no definitive proof, but he fell ill shortly after gettting a vaccine and continued to worsen until he couldn't even feed himself - that's how devastating G-B is. (And his recovery took months.) When I discussed it with a neighbor, he told me about 2 other people he knows who were diagnosed with G-B after getting vaccines. Again, there is no definitive proof that they developed G-B because of the vaccines, but the fact that each developed it immediately after getting a vaccine really gives me pause.

I think I will skip the vaccines and focus on preventing the spread of germs.

---I do not wish to argue any of your points...
I do think that it is important to note that Guillain-Barre does not occur only following vaccinations.

"Guillain-Barré syndrome is rare. Usually Guillain-Barré occurs a few days or weeks after the patient has had symptoms of a respiratory or gastrointestinal viral infection. Occasionally, surgery or vaccinations will trigger the syndrome."
the above quote from:
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/gbs/gbs.htm

This is becoming such a waste time! If you don't believe in the vaccine, don't get it, it is that simple. If you are worried about mercury, don't eat fish and have all those amalgams removed from your teeth.

No one has a clue how severe H1N1 may be. Keep in mind that 'seasonal' flu may effect 25-50 million people in the US and result in 35,000 to 40,000 deaths each year. H1N1 is more contagious than the run of the mill seasonal flu.

UF Prof wrote:This is becoming such a waste time! If you don't believe in the vaccine, don't get it, it is that simple. If you are worried about mercury, don't eat fish and have all those amalgams removed from your teeth.

No one has a clue how severe H1N1 may be. Keep in mind that 'seasonal' flu may effect 25-50 million people in the US and result in 35,000 to 40,000 deaths each year. H1N1 is more contagious than the run of the mill seasonal flu.

I actually think this is a great discussion. It always seems that any discussion that involves anything of a 'serious' nature is quickly deemed a waste of time around here.

Liamsaunt has made an intelligent decision based on her own health to get the shot. I think that's great! I will not get it, mostly because I have fears about the vaccine (and no, I am not one who thinks autism is caused by vaccines - I just don't care to have the vaccine and then have to worry about the uncertainties of an unproven and untested vaccine).

As for H1N1 being more contagious than seasonal flu, that may or may not be true. I understand the statistic that was shared earlier about secondary infection...However, I'm not sure if that number take into account the millions who have received the seasonal flu shot.

In other words, if patient A (no infection, but did receive a flu shot) comes into contact and is sneezed on directly by Patient B (flu infected), Patient A will not become infected as they were vaccinated. That number is really comparing apples to oranges...Comparing the potential spread of one disease for which there is a vaccine, vs. one for which there is no vaccine. You would expect the number for H1N1 to be higher than that of seasonal flu.

Nobody has been vaccinated for this flu yet. I think that number is skewed.

Finally...Since April 2009, 500 and some people have died (a little more than 5 months)...Extrapulate that over a year, and you're talking about what, maybe 1,000 - 2,000 patients dying from H1N1 here in the United States? As UFProf said, 35,000 die each year from seasonal flu. We do, afterall, have the greatest healthcare system in the world.

Oh, one last thing...The issue that really worries scientists and healthcare workers when it comes to any flu outbreak is the phenomenon known as "cytokine storm". This flu, knock on wood, has not shown that it induces cytokine storm yet...This was the reason more young people died in 1918 than older folks...Cytokine storm actually causes a healthy immune system to overwhelm the body, so the healthier an individual, the worse off that patient could potentially be.

Again, I don't believe H1N1 has been linked to cytokine storm yet. Fingers crossed on that one...If that changes, that would make me *think* about getting the shot, and I certainly would get one for my children at that point.

Talk to you doctors.

We had a work meeting last Monday. Husband laid down the law as it relates to handwashing and I bought cases of hand sanitizer for the trucks and the office.

He really tried to drive home to the collective group of employees that we have, in our work family,
several premature babies and someone recovering from Guillain-Barre (not vaccince related, I ran out to ask him) as well as radiation and chemo for lung cancer, that they all need to do as much as they can to stay healthy.

Any employee that contracts either type of flu will be off a minimum of a week, no expections.

I am pleasantly surprised how well prepared my son's preschool seems to be. When and if it hits, every single person entering the building will be watched at the hand washing station.

Sounds weird when I type the above but people are dirt balls. I am shocked how many don't wash their hands when using the bathroom, let alone after touching public surfaces all day long.

Soxfan: I agree with one thing you said-ask a doctor. I am certainly not going to skip the vaccine because two college kids said the flu was no big deal.

Try telling the families whose children or parents have died that the virus is no big deal.

I am not familiar with the mortality rate data, but .56% is over 4 times that of .12%. Which, if those numbers you have quoted are true, is pretty scary to me considering it is a younger population that is getting infected.

I still don't think we should panic, but we should definitely pay attention. I am pretty sure that vaccine will not have a mortality rate of .56 percent.

Also, you wrote:
"Finally...Since April 2009, 500 and some people have died (a little more than 5 months)...Extrapulate that over a year, and you're talking about what, maybe 1,000 - 2,000 patients dying from H1N1 here in the United States? As UFProf said, 35,000 die each year from seasonal flu. We do, afterall, have the greatest healthcare system in the world."

You cant extrapolate that over a year. Barely anyone was infected at the beginning. This is a new virus and people are getting infected pretty much exponentially-or at least they are as this whole thing is kicking in.