USVI-On-Line

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Pete (Mr. Marcia) wrote: As for the "second death" thing...that's your worry. I believe in doing good things on this earth because it is the right thing to do, not because some god may punish me later if I don't.

This is a common mischaracterization of Christians. As a devout believer, I do "good" because I want to serve and please God, not because I fear Him. There is nothing that fills my heart more than serving the Lord.

Teresa_Rae wrote:

Pete (Mr. Marcia) wrote: As for the "second death" thing...that's your worry. I believe in doing good things on this earth because it is the right thing to do, not because some god may punish me later if I don't.

This is a common mischaracterization of Christians. As a devout believer, I do "good" because I want to serve and please God, not because I fear Him. There is nothing that fills my heart more than serving the Lord.

Then why is there a hell in your belief system? Those of us who don't share that belief system see the threat of hell as a way to keep those of you who do share that belief system on the straight and narrow.

Pete (Mr. Marcia) wrote:Then why is there a hell in your belief system? Those of us who don't share that belief system see the threat of hell as a way to keep those of you who do share that belief system on the straight and narrow.

If I had to be "good" to get to heaven I'd be in trouble. All of us would. That is the beauty of what Christ did on the cross. He died for sins He didn't commit so believers could live. I accepted Christ when I was a teenager. I received salvation that day and I have no fear whatsoever of losing it. I think of hell as eternal separation from God. Heaven is eternally being in God's presence. If someone chooses to live apart from God on earth then I guess a continued eternal separation shouldn't be so bad then huh? Not that I believe that...I do think there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth and people going "oh crap I wish I would have figured that out sooner..."

What often gets lost is that God is primarily there to love us. And that love helps me love my husband better, my friends, family, coworkers and strangers more, and to serve others because my heart belongs to God and my strength is from Him.

Let me preface this by saying that I am not being my usual, smart-ass self.

But, Teresa Rae, I still am trying to figure out what role hell plays in all of this. I never went to Sunday school, I did not attend church regularly.

So, from my ignorant perspective, it seems as though hell is a threat. "Be nice or you will go to hell."

Shouldn't we be nice just because it is the right thing to do? Am I totally missing something?

Teresa Rae is right on all counts. There has to be a hell. Where would God put people like you?.........unbelievers. You can't go to heaven because you don't believe in it. What is the opposite of heaven?? Hell....the absence of God. I'm not worried at all about where I'll end up. I hope you figure it out before it's too late. Whether you do or don't, it doesn't change the fact that it's real. I promise you that everyone who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, isn't doing it becasue he's afraid of hell. That's you're belief as an outsider looking in, because you can't get your brain around how we can have this blind faith and know we are right. I understand that. I was that way once. I thought that as long as I was a good person.....didnt kill anyone,steal. you know, those biggie sins, then if there was a heaven and hell, I'd be OK. Then I met someone who opened my eyes and showed me such and easier way. I still sin, but I try to do better each day to please God, and I know he forgives me. Just like you forgive your kids when they mess up. He doen't want you to go to hell, but he did give you free will and put your fate in your own hand.

flip-flop wrote: Go ahead ... bring the fight on that one. Alienate women and hispanics. Shhhhhh, don't tell them these are HUGE swing voting blocks they need. Further marginalize the republican party. It will save us a lot of campaign money in the future.

Funny, but I don't remember Democrats being told to worry about alieniating the black community when they dragged Clarence Thomas through the mud.

Nor did they have to worry about the hispanic vote when they said horrific things about Alberto Gonzalez.

And of course there was no worry from the media or from Dems about alienating the latino vote when they wripped apart another Hispanic Bush nominee, Miguel Estrada.

Sotomayor's own comments would lead one to believe she is a bigot. I see no problem with making her squirm a bit during the hearings about her comments. Not sure Jeff Sessions will do that though.

flip-flop wrote:Go ahead ... bring the fight on that one. Alienate women and hispanics. Shhhhhh, don't tell them these are HUGE swing voting blocks they need. Further marginalize the republican party. It will save us a lot of campaign money in the future.

I see. Politics is all about apeasing minorities. That just makes me want to achive that lesbian status even more.

Toes - to Dems, politics is always about breaking poeople into groups...Whether it's whites, blacks, hispanics, gays, asians, rich, poor, christians (aka the "religous right"), muslims, athiests, secularists etc...It's always about identity politics for them.

They make promises to each of these groups and then never make good on those promises.

Conservatives on the other hand, tend to see people as people. We believe that poeple no matter their skin color or beliefs can succeed on their own, without condescending tone of the federal government telling them that they NEED their assistance to be successful.

cypressgirl wrote:Teresa Rae is right on all counts. There has to be a hell. Where would God put people like you?.........unbelievers. You can't go to heaven because you don't believe in it. What is the opposite of heaven?? Hell....the absence of God. I'm not worried at all about where I'll end up. I hope you figure it out before it's too late. Whether you do or don't, it doesn't change the fact that it's real. I promise you that everyone who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, isn't doing it becasue he's afraid of hell. That's you're belief as an outsider looking in, because you can't get your brain around how we can have this blind faith and know we are right. I understand that. I was that way once. I thought that as long as I was a good person.....didnt kill anyone,steal. you know, those biggie sins, then if there was a heaven and hell, I'd be OK. Then I met someone who opened my eyes and showed me such and easier way. I still sin, but I try to do better each day to please God, and I know he forgives me. Just like you forgive your kids when they mess up. He doen't want you to go to hell, but he did give you free will and put your fate in your own hand.

Reduced to its essence, here's what I understand you to be saying: if one believes in your god/Jesus, they go to heaven...if they do not believe in your god/Jesus they go to hell. Is that correct?

If it is, then what happens to the devoutly religious people who happen to believe in a religion different from yours, e.g., muslims, jews, etc?

If I understand you correctly, they are going to hell with me. That doesn't seem fair to them.

Pete (Mr. Marcia) wrote:

cypressgirl wrote:Teresa Rae is right on all counts. There has to be a hell. Where would God put people like you?.........unbelievers. You can't go to heaven because you don't believe in it. What is the opposite of heaven?? Hell....the absence of God. I'm not worried at all about where I'll end up. I hope you figure it out before it's too late. Whether you do or don't, it doesn't change the fact that it's real. I promise you that everyone who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, isn't doing it becasue he's afraid of hell. That's you're belief as an outsider looking in, because you can't get your brain around how we can have this blind faith and know we are right. I understand that. I was that way once. I thought that as long as I was a good person.....didnt kill anyone,steal. you know, those biggie sins, then if there was a heaven and hell, I'd be OK. Then I met someone who opened my eyes and showed me such and easier way. I still sin, but I try to do better each day to please God, and I know he forgives me. Just like you forgive your kids when they mess up. He doen't want you to go to hell, but he did give you free will and put your fate in your own hand.

Reduced to its essence, here's what I understand you to be saying: if one believes in your god/Jesus, they go to heaven...if they do not believe in your god/Jesus they go to hell. Is that correct?

If it is, then what happens to the devoutly religious people who happen to believe in a religion different from yours, e.g., muslims, jews, etc?

If I understand you correctly, they are going to hell with me. That doesn't seem fair to them.

I believe with all my heart that God has a plan for the Jewish people to go to heaven. They are His chosen people and He will not abandon them. As far as other religions, I have no idea how that will be reconciled with God. All I know is that no one enters the kingdom without first knowing the son. There are a lot of people that won't get to heaven, for whatever reason. It's a small world. If you have the oppertunity to know Jesus and choose to not accept Him for who He is, then I don't believe eternal life in heaven is yours to enjoy.

There are countless mysteries about our planet and how it was created that we will never know the answer to in this life. I know some day it will all be revealed and we will all understand. For now, I'm looking forward to STJ in a couple of weeks. I can sit in the hot tub at night with a nice beverage, and admire the stars that God created. Doesn't get much better than that.

cypressgirl wrote: You asked for more scriptures and I gave you a couple. You didn't want more biblical proof, because you wouldn't believe it anyway. I am not a religious person, I am a spiritual person. I don't love my God because I'm afraid of Him. He loves me more than anyone else I know. He created me. I can turn to Him when no one else is there for me. I don't love Him because I'm afraid I won't go to heaven. I love Him because he died so I can have an eternal life in heaven. It took me decades to get that, but now that I do, it's the best feeling in the world.

Not buying the bible as 100% God's word doesn't mean someone is not spiritual. I simply question can anyone really KNOW God's intentions. With all the interference of men and translations and a multitude of interpretations. It is not just liberal lefties with gay inclinations that say these passages may be misinterpreted, it is also the head of the Anglican Church (head of 77 million anglicans world wide) saying this. (see http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... 0620070417)

This is a very personal issue for you and considering that, I would think you would want to take into account that perhaps there are mulitiple interpretations of "God's word" that may bring you more peace and allow you not to see your daughter as condemned.

It is just strange to me that some parts of the bible are followed to the letter while others are discounted out of hand and left in the dust. I can't imagine how sad and completely not at peace I woudl be if I felt my daughter were going to be eternally damned. I am not saying that you should disregard your faith, just that many other Christians have found peace with this issue and there are many many many Gay Christians.

Again, it is not that you are Christian that is the problem. It is the close-minded judgemental part - you will be in heaven, others will go to hell - that disturbs me.

Fruther, if people truly feel this way - GOD will judge us - I don't understand the issue. God will judge those who have done him wrong, why do we need to act on what we think is his behalf here on earth?

SJfromNJ wrote:

flip-flop wrote:And one more thing...and then I'll leave you guys alone.

RE: Sotomayor. Say what you want about Obama but his choice while hopefully not purely political, was from a political standpoint, genius. He continues to back the haters (if you guys are still claiming Rush, Hannity, Newt and Coulter) into a corner where they seem to be frothing at the mouth. Confirmed or not, Obama is in a win-win situation.

Genius? I think not! The telepromter told him to pick Sotomayor. I guess I'm screwed in her court, I have blond hair and blue eyes.

Just based on credentials she couldn't carry John Roberts breifcase. I was going to say jock strap but decided against it.

By extention than the rest of us -- all minorities, women, gays, etc -- have been screwed in the courts of old white men for a very long time. Again, welcome to the new world!

toes in the sand wrote:

flip-flop wrote:Go ahead ... bring the fight on that one. Alienate women and hispanics. Shhhhhh, don't tell them these are HUGE swing voting blocks they need. Further marginalize the republican party. It will save us a lot of campaign money in the future.

I see. Politics is all about apeasing minorities. That just makes me want to achive that lesbian status even more.

Well it used to be about fear mongering but Bush went back to Texas.

flip-flop wrote: I can't imagine how sad and completely not at peace I woudl be if I felt my daughter were going to be eternally damned.

Wow. Flip, you and Gromit are truly birds of a feather. Who says something like this?

Disgraceful.